Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

[Comartemis]

Well, I do feel the need to point out that Nanoha was as much an amateur as any of the Senshi, she just eventually also made it her job.

It helps that she was so driven to become good enough to beat/befriend Fate, but yeah, being a mage was Nanoha's calling right from the start. Remember that conversation about careers with Suzuka & Arisa in episode 1?

[Uldihaa]

It helps that she was so driven to become good enough to beat/befriend Fate, but yeah, being a mage was Nanoha's calling right from the start. Remember that conversation about careers with Suzuka & Arisa in episode 1?

True. She accepts, even welcomes, being a mage right from the start. That does separate her from the run-of-the-mill magical girl. Of course, to me, it seemed she was also being rather mature about it. She was a mage, there was a magical threat, and she accepted that she needed to do something about it rather than try to cling to some sort of 'normal' life.

I think that the tendency of all too many magic girls to cling to a normal life irritates me. It's like they are deliberately refusing to grow up and instead attempt to cling to their childhood. While it's understandable to an extent, just how many times do you need to save the world before you realize that that is what you were meant to do? They have this power for a reason, and their refusal to accept that, even after multiple 'save the worlds' situations, comes across as rather childish. I realize that it's part of the theme of the story, but it still irritates

Part of the appeal of this series is that while it looks, and is to an extent, a magical girl show the fact that Nanoha isn't your typical magical girl heroine helps to make it stand out from the rest. In other words, it has all the trappings of a magical girl show, but below that is a very different type of show.

[Comartemis]

I think that the tendency of all too many magic girls to cling to a normal life irritates me. It's like they are deliberately refusing to grow up and instead attempt to cling to their childhood.

Sounds like you might like Corrector Yui, Uldihaa. The title character meets the call to adventure at the front door with her bags packed, same way Nanoha does. Don't know much else about the show, though.

In other words, it has all the trappings of a magical girl show, but below that is a very different type of show.

It's basically Negima without the harem of girls.

...hey, waitasec...

[Uldihaa]

Sounds like you might like Corrector Yui, Uldihaa. The title character meets the call to adventure at the front door with her bags packed, same way Nanoha does. Don't know much else about the show, though.

I've heard of that show...something about magical computer program-thingies...or is that a different show? In either case, I'll check that one out, thanks Comartemis

In other words, it has all the trappings of a magical girl show, but below that is a very different type of show.

I did have a rather odd thought (due no doubt to a lack of sleep and medication). We call Nanoha a magical girl show, but I think all of us agree that isn't a very accurate description. Maybe Nanoha would be better described as a new type of sub-genre, or spin-off genre; similar to the way the Real Robot genre spun-off from the Super Robot genre. A more descriptive name might be, as Claymade pointed out, the Professional Magical Girl sub-genre.

Now my question is: What qualities would a show have to have in order fit into this sub-genre?

For example: The heroine would have to accept and actively pursue their life as a magical girl; up to and including sacrificing their 'normal' life without whining about it.

[claymade]

Well, I do feel the need to point out that Nanoha was as much an amateur as any of the Senshi, she just eventually also made it her job. I think she also tended to take her 'side-job' a bit more seriously than many other magical girls; it also seemed to me that instead of going the route of 'average Joe/Jane' who win by 'guts' and luck as much as anything else, Nanoha went with exceptional people who can handle saving the world while attending school and hanging out with friends. But I do agree that the theme of a series can have an effect on what and how the characters fight.

Indeed, you're correct. To restate what I was (trying to) say a little clearer, the point of Nanoha is that fighting the bad guys is her thing. The point of Sailor Moon is that it's really not their thing, but they do it regardless.

I did have a rather odd thought (due no doubt to a lack of sleep and medication). We call Nanoha a magical girl show, but I think all of us agree that isn't a very accurate description. Maybe Nanoha would be better described as a new type of sub-genre, or spin-off genre; similar to the way the Real Robot genre spun-off from the Super Robot genre. A more descriptive name might be, as Claymade pointed out, the Professional Magical Girl sub-genre.

Now my question is: What qualities would a show have to have in order fit into this sub-genre?

Another quality I would look for (personally) along those lines is what proportion of the MG's abilities are automatically bestowed by the nature of their destiny and/or transformation(s) and/or pure-heartedness, versus how much they have to build up themselves via practice and training.

What percentage of their power comes "for free"? And how much "buck" do they have to put in to get their "bang"?

The one extreme would be the kind of thing usually found in martial arts anime. Endless cycles of backbreaking training--sometimes getting to the point of being life-threatening itself--and often under masters who seem to have sadism as a pet hobby. The opposite extreme would be the Sailor Moon approach. "Okay, here's your henshin pen! And don't forget to think pure thoughts!"

With those as the two extremes of the scale, for a more "professional magical girl" anime, I'd expect things to tend more to the former side of things. Not that it'd have to go to all the way to those kind of lengths, but just a more realistic treatment of the fact that excellence doesn't often come without some serious effort.

[Comartemis]

Magic Knights Rayearth comes to mind. Yeah, the girls started off with some basic powers, armor and some neat swords, but to draw out their full powers they had to do a little growing as individuals.

[claymade]

...growing as individuals.

I don't know if that's quite what I'm thinking of--hard to say since I haven't seen the show.

The idea isn't just that they grow into it in the abstract, it's that they grow into it by realistic means of developing the skills themselves. It doesn't really count if it's "becoming a better person allows you to grow in your power." They'd have to do specific practice and work on their abilities specifically for it to qualify in my mind.

I think the Jubei-chan the Ninja Girl anime deserves an honorable mention in that respect. Not that she really trained either, but just relying on magic for skills was at least revealed to have some serious drawbacks to it--and skills that were acquired the right way were actually portrayed as ultimately having more potential. (In the first season, at least. The second one went in completely the other direction--one of the few big blemishes on an otherwise brain-meltingly good show.)

[Yrael]

Magic Knights Rayearth comes to mind. Yeah, the girls started off with some basic powers, armor and some neat swords, but to draw out their full powers they had to do a little growing as individuals.

Well, to be fair, as far as the weapons go, none of the girls were really amateurs. Hikaru was as talented kendoist, Umi was a championship fencer, and I'm pretty sure Fuu was proficient in archery, though I'm not entirely sure about that last one.

Their growth seemed to be based less on their development as people and more in slowly growing confidence in themselves. Hikaru was kicking ass right from the start, but it took longer for Umi and Fuu to finally realize that they could, too.

[Uldihaa]

Magic Knights Rayearth comes to mind. Yeah, the girls started off with some basic powers, armor and some neat swords, but to draw out their full powers they had to do a little growing as individuals.

While the girls in MKR do get stronger through the constant battles, it's more like they 'level-up'. They have a mid-battle epiphany and then get an up-grade.

I was thinking that a Professional Magical Girl would get gradual improvements through constant practice. Nanoha, for example, kept practicing her control over Divine Shooter and when that spell got upgraded to Axel Shooter she already had the control needed to both attack a target and counter that targets own attack (thinking about Nanoha's fight against Vita).

So, we have:

1) Embraces her 'fate' and rarely laments the loss of a normal life.

2) Trains in the use of her abilities, and through that training shows improvement.

Possible 3) Uses sound tactics and strategy regularly, not just special tactics to defeat a specific enemy. ?

Any others?

[claymade]

1) Embraces her 'fate' and rarely laments the loss of a normal life.

2) Trains in the use of her abilities, and through that training shows improvement.

Possible 3) Uses sound tactics and strategy regularly, not just special tactics to defeat a specific enemy. ?

Any others?

The three above sound like a good start. With, maybe one slight modification to #1--which, in fact, suggests a fourth now that I think about it: that the PMG shouldn't have a cosmic-level "fate/destiny" orchestrating her hero-ing, rather, that she gets into it in a more mundane, realistic manner.

[bissek]

Well, Nanoha's introduction to magic wasn't exactly mundane - she ran into a talking animal that gave her a powerful magical artifact to use to subdue a paranormal threat. But on the other hand, I got the impression that if Nanoha honestly didn't want to continue with the magical girl business after that first fight, Yuuno would have respected her decision and found someone else to look for the Jewel Seeds.

I'd say that the novel Lina Inverse meets the criteria listed here. She chose the life of a magical mercenary, and regularly seeks out knowledge that can be used to gain more magical ability. I say novel Lina because anime Lina's idea of a good strategy in most cases is to charge up a Dragon Slave and watch as the enemy (And the surrounding countryside) vanishes under a mushroom cloud.

[LiliandraNadiar]

I say novel Lina because anime Lina's idea of a good strategy in most cases is to charge up a Dragon Slave and watch as the enemy (And the surrounding countryside) vanishes under a mushroom cloud.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[bissek]

In the novels, a Dragon Slave isn't a guaranteed one-shot kill. And Lina tends to be more concerned about collateral damage. So she has to apply actual strategy in order to win.

[claymade]

Well, Nanoha's introduction to magic wasn't exactly mundane - she ran into a talking animal that gave her a powerful magical artifact to use to subdue a paranormal threat. But on the other hand, I got the impression that if Nanoha honestly didn't want to continue with the magical girl business after that first fight, Yuuno would have respected her decision and found someone else to look for the Jewel Seeds.

Right, the operative word being "more" mundane. Anything worth the "magical" part of "professional magical girl" will be less than purely mundane. But for the professionals, it should be a chosen vocation as opposed to a cosmically ordained destiny a la Sailor Moon.

[Comartemis]

Would Sakura of CCS count?