Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

[Shadell]

Hmm.... Just out of curiousity, I've heard a lot of stuff toting up the power in Nanoha; but, I can't think of a single example that really backs up half of what I've heard. What are the highest levels of destruction we've seen them accomplish? I certainly can't think of anything on par with Sailor Saturn's highest level attacks. The most actual direct damage I can recall from Nanoha is blasting through multiple metal walls, impressive; but, nowhere near as strong as I frequently see her portrayed?

Where exactly does this belief in the Nanoha cast's ungodly firepower originate?

[bissek]

Well, one of Nanoha and Fate's fights in the first season creates a dimensional distortion that could be detected from a spaceship a long way off. Even allowing for the Jewel Seed amplifying the effect, that's still a lot of power. The Book of Darkness can potentially wreck a good-sized portion of a planet. The combined power of Fate, Nanoha, Hayate, Chrono and the Wolkenritter was able to cripple it long enough to move it someplace where they could blow it up with the really big guns.

It might also come from a comment in the first season. A power measurement gives Nanoha's strength as 1.27 million, and Fate's as 1.43 million. Given that Nanoha was almost completely untrained at that point, that's quite impressive sounding. If the TSAB uses the same scale as the cast of DBZ, that would mean that those two can fight a level one Super Saiyan on equal terms.

However, no baseline of what that power level actually means is ever provided. Since the scale that measures magical strength is never really explained, the numbers don't actually mean anything.

[Comartemis]

One of Signum's attacks had enough power behind it to smash Fate through what AnimeSuki claims was six floors of a high-rise building, each one made of solid concrete. The fact that she was able to survive something like that says volumes about the kind of punishment high-level mages can take and dish out.

[Shadell]

Well, one of Nanoha and Fate's fights in the first season creates a dimensional distortion that could be detected from a spaceship a long way off. Even allowing for the Jewel Seed amplifying the effect, that's still a lot of power. The Book of Darkness can potentially wreck a good-sized portion of a planet. The combined power of Fate, Nanoha, Hayate, Chrono and the Wolkenritter was able to cripple it long enough to move it someplace where they could blow it up with the really big guns.

We don't know exactly what kind of effect magic has on the dimension. There's no way of accounting as to how good the spaceship is at measuring dimensional distortions, or what kind of effect magic has on the dimension.

Furthermore, the book of darkness was just standing there for a good part of the battle, allowing Nanoha and co. to heap on a good deal of damage without reprisal. Also they attacked constantly for several minutes when fighting the creature. No single character would have been able of doing that.

One of Signum's attacks had enough power behind it to smash Fate through what AnimeSuki claims was six floors of a high-rise building, each one made of solid concrete. The fact that she was able to survive something like that says volumes about the kind of punishment high-level mages can take and dish out.

Bardiche was damaged extensively by the attack.


So do we have any real criteria to judge the Nanoha cast's power on that would render them capable of trashing most other anime's casts the way I frequently see them portrayed.


Not a single attack ever seems to inflict fatal damage. This could be a testament to the mage's control; but, even when we've seen people sniping targets (And shoot the wrong person directly in the eye) said person survived. It's reasonable to think that someone using a sniping attack would be expected to kill, since we know magic that binds an enemy exists, and it would be a tad safer for capture purposes.

[Comartemis]

Bardiche was damaged extensively by the attack.

So? This isn't about Bardiche, it's about Fate. The G forces involved with that kind of sudden acceleration/deceleration should have led to Fate being splattered across the rooftop, Bardiche or no Bardiche. Instead she not only survives, she does so again on the next five impacts. That's at least Ryoga Hibiki-level toughness without shields.

Not a single attack ever seems to inflict fatal damage.

Correction, not a single spell ever seems to inflict fatal damage. The Wolkenritter have proven to be quite deadly with their melee weapons, which have been shown to work just like regular swords/hammers/etc insofar as their usage in melee is concerned; Levantine has an edge, Graf Eisen has a point (sometimes), etc. Witness also Fate's near-decapitation of Nanoha in their first fight.

As for the spells themselves, I think I can explain this one.

First, we know a few things from StrikerS about the TSAB, and one of them is how they've banned non-magical weapons in all the worlds under their jurisdiction, which is why Jail had to go underground with his cyborg production. In most cases, this wouldn't make much difference; take away a gun and replace it with fireballs? What's the point?

But given examples like Vice sniping his sister and Ginga surviving a Divine Buster at point-blank range--never mind Quattro taking Nanoha's Blaster Level 3 D.B. and only losing consciousness--leads me to think that all devices have a natural 'stun' setting built into them that most mages use by default.

There's also the matter of the "Phantom Zone" spells that are used in battle throughout the first two seasons, which explain why there's so little property damage resulting from these fights.

[Shadell]

So? This isn't about Bardiche, it's about Fate. The G forces involved with that kind of sudden acceleration/deceleration should have led to Fate being splattered across the rooftop, Bardiche or no Bardiche. Instead she not only survives, she does so again on the next five impacts. That's at least Ryoga Hibiki-level toughness without shields.

Fate cast a shield spell. Plus, the speed they use with speed boosting spells should have a negative effect on their body. It's logical to conclude that they have some effect to reduce damage due to acceleration. Besides, if she kept moving then you can't say it's acceleration/deceleration's since she didn't slow down. Rather, it was damage that her shield spell blocked.

Correction, not a single spell ever seems to inflict fatal damage. The Wolkenritter have proven to be quite deadly with their melee weapons, which have been shown to work just like regular swords/hammers/etc insofar as their usage in melee is concerned; Levantine has an edge, Graf Eisen has a point (sometimes), etc. Witness also Fate's near-decapitation of Nanoha in their first fight.

Second fight; and what's the point of giving somebody a deadly melee weapon if the primary purpose of the weapon is to stun enemies? That doesn't make the least bit of sense. Our world's level of magicless technology can quite easily create melee weapons with stunning effects, what's the purpose of having an actual edged weapon unless you're going to fight to the death.

As for the spells themselves, I think I can explain this one.

First, we know a few things from StrikerS about the TSAB, and one of them is how they've banned non-magical weapons in all the worlds under their jurisdiction, which is why Jail had to go underground with his cyborg production. In most cases, this wouldn't make much difference; take away a gun and replace it with fireballs? What's the point?

I doubt it's that simple. I thought they were using a general ban to make it harder to invest in such things as nukes and missiles, weapons with a great deal more destructive power then most mages toss around. Furthermore, using magic takes some training. Anyone can get a gun and kill somebody. Also, not everyone can use magic.

But given examples like Vice sniping his sister and Ginga surviving a Divine Buster at point-blank range--never mind Quattro taking Nanoha's Blaster Level 3 D.B. and only losing consciousness--leads me to think that all devices have a natural 'stun' setting built into them that most mages use by default.

What's the point of dealing physical damage if you're going for a stun effect. We've seen devices create lightning and ice, so why not just stick shock effects on there. Vice's shot clearly does physical damage. It would be utterly pointless to make it do piercing damage if you're trying to avoid lethal damage. It's an energy based attack, it would take actual effort to make it deal piercing damage like that.

The idea of hitting somebody hard enough to knock them out doesn't make the least bit of sense. There are easily available alternatives to that.

There's very little point in making a weapon with those characteristics without lethal intent. Given that the weapon hit somebody in a vulnerable area, it's safe to diagnose it as a failure. The idea of a stun setting sounds nice; but there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for using it in a lot of the situations they do use it.

There's also the matter of the "Phantom Zone" spells that are used in battle throughout the first two seasons, which explain why there's so little property damage resulting from these fights.

Collateral damage happens within the Phantom Zone, it just vanishes when the Phantom Zone does.

[Comartemis]

Plus, the speed they use with speed boosting spells should have a negative effect on their body. It's logical to conclude that they have some effect to reduce damage due to acceleration.

True, but that would most likely be a component of the barrier jacket, which no sane mage/knight will ever fight without.

Second fight; and what's the point of giving somebody a deadly melee weapon if the primary purpose of the weapon is to stun enemies?

You're forgetting that Signum and Vita are battle-hardened Belkan Knights, not innocent little girls who avoid killing at all costs. Recall that Vita nearly gave Nanoha a deathblow before Fate showed up in A's episode 1.

The Wolks don't have the stun setting that the Mages do because they have no use for it; most of their attacks cause physical damage anyways, so there's no point in stunning someone who's already bleeding to death. And Fate's scythe was probably designed by Precia, making the blade lethal while leaving Fate's spells as lethal (or not) as she wants them to be.

What's the point of dealing physical damage if you're going for a stun effect.

To counter different types of shields, obviously. I know one of the manga series mentions different shield types with different functions like the AMF, and Nanoha's wiki entry mentions that Field-type spells nullify specific energy types. Physical damage is just the result of kinetic energy.

Vice's shot clearly does physical damage.

Perhaps, but it couldn't have been very severe--like, at all--for the girl to come back at the end of StrikerS with that eye completely healed.

*EDIT*
And before you suggest healing magic, the fact that Mid-Childa has hospitals says to me that healing magic is either not very widespread or very limited in the scope of its' capabilities.

Furthermore, the book of darkness was just standing there for a good part of the battle, allowing Nanoha and co. to heap on a good deal of damage without reprisal.

Oh sure, thanks to Arf and Yuuno using binding spells on it.

Really Shades, why so critical? Are the big freaking explosions, massive energy blasts and impressive tactical abilities of the mages that unimpressive?

Honestly, it's never been a question for me as to whether or not Nanoha and company are the strongest characters since DBZ. I'm surprised you think otherwise.

[Heaven's Deamon]

Considering Shadell's normal attitudes, I wouldn't be at all surprised is he/she is just playing Devil's Advocate and intentionally trying to find holes in your arguements to see how you will cover them.

[Shadell]

You're forgetting that Signum and Vita are battle-hardened Belkan Knights, not innocent little girls who avoid killing at all costs. Recall that Vita nearly gave Nanoha a deathblow before Fate showed up in A's episode 1.

The Wolks don't have the stun setting that the Mages do because they have no use for it; most of their attacks cause physical damage anyways, so there's no point in stunning someone who's already bleeding to death. And Fate's scythe was probably designed by Precia, making the blade lethal while leaving Fate's spells as lethal (or not) as she wants them to be.

What's the point of having an endless variety of increasingly destructive attacks if the normal ones are already not doing the highest level damage? Why have or use Starlight Breaker if you could just power up every one of those tiny little energy blasts that everyone uses

To counter different types of shields, obviously. I know one of the manga series mentions different shield types with different functions like the AMF, and Nanoha's wiki entry mentions that Field-type spells nullify specific energy types. Physical damage is just the result of kinetic energy.

Most shields we see have a primarily physical effect, ergo a weak physical effect to break shields seems ridiculous. Given that a mage can create more then one kind of spell, what's the point against using a physical damage spell against an enemy that has no shield to prevent it, unless you're attempting to kill or seriously injure your target.

Perhaps, but it couldn't have been very severe--like, at all--for the girl to come back at the end of StrikerS with that eye completely healed.

*EDIT*
And before you suggest healing magic, the fact that Mid-Childa has hospitals says to me that healing magic is either not very widespread or very limited in the scope of its' capabilities.

We don't know what medical technology they have. Regeneration of lost limbs isn't an impossibility. Our modern technology could feasibly reach that stage within the next hundred years. Mid-childan technology is well beyond ours, ergo, having far more sophisticated medical technology would be a given.

Also, Shamal states that she's a specialist of curative magic in episode 12 of A's. She heals Nanoha and Fate's wounds from their previous battles.

Oh sure, thanks to Arf and Yuuno using binding spells on it.

Those binding spells destroyed parts of the body, they didn't actually restrain anything. The book itself didn't try a single magical attack until after Yuuno, Arf, Vita, Nanoha, Signum and Fate had unleashed strong spells.

Really Shades, why so critical? Are the big freaking explosions, massive energy blasts and impressive tactical abilities of the mages that unimpressive?

No. The tactical abilities aren't unimpressive at all. I'm merely questioning the extent of the abilities seen in the show. It's an injustice to a character to make him/her out to be infinitely stronger then he/she is.

[Comartemis]

What's the point of having an endless variety of increasingly destructive attacks if the normal ones are already not doing the highest level damage? Why have or use Starlight Breaker if you could just power up every one of those tiny little energy blasts that everyone uses

Are you trying to say that there's no difference in destructive power between a Starlight Breaker and an Accel Shooter?

Different attack spell types probably have different parameters and limitations, i.e. you can only channel so much mana into an Accel Shooter before the balls explode and ruin the spell. Starlight Breaker, being a torrent of magical energy gathered from the surrounding air, is only limited by how much mana it can collect, but like all beam-type spells, it only travels in one direction and is really easy to dodge unless Nanoha leads with an ACS Driver/Strike Flame attack.

It's not just the destructive power of the spells that needs to be taken into account, it's also the versatility of those spells. Like any good weapon, an Accel Shooter will prove more ideal in some circumstances than a Divine Buster would, the same way an automatic rifle is more effective against infantry than a single-shot RPG.

Most shields we see have a primarily physical effect, ergo a weak physical effect to break shields seems ridiculous. Given that a mage can create more then one kind of spell, what's the point against using a physical damage spell against an enemy that has no shield to prevent it, unless you're attempting to kill or seriously injure your target.

Wait, what? When did I say the physical attacks would be weak? I seem to recall a severely damaged Raising Heart putting up a barrier that could stop Graf Eisen until Vita pumped an extra cartridge into it. Obviously a good shield has an incredible amount of defensive power.

Further, you said yourself that most shields have a physical effect, which I take to mean they are capable of blocking physical attacks. Given that virtually every mage in the series has one of these, it's probably not very likely to encounter a mage who doesn't have a physical shield; hell, it's Nanoha's most basic spell.

What makes the Wolkenritter so deadly (despite the fact that their primary attack method is so easily defended against) is their habit of enhancing their physical attacks with magical power-ups and the cartridge system, making their physical attacks much more powerful than what the average mage's shields can withstand.

Mid-childan technology is well beyond ours, ergo, having far more sophisticated medical technology would be a given.

Is it really that much more advanced? Sure they've got a lot of sci-fi stuff going on, but they still have things like cars and helicopters, and people are still using airports. The extent of Mid-Childan magic/technology fusion and the extent of non-magical technology is something that the series needs to elaborate on more before we can make anything besides bad guesswork as to its' nature.

She heals Nanoha and Fate's wounds from their previous battles.

And exactly how badly wounded were they? I didn't see any serious wounds, no missing limbs, and most importantly, no shot-out eyes. All Shamal seemed to do was give them a second wind and fix up some cuts and scrapes they'd picked up.

I've never seen anything that shows anywhere near DBZ level powers. Houshin Engi, Hellsing, Samurai Deeper Kyo, etc. all have attacks that do more damage then anything we see from an individual in Nanoha.

I said since, not on par with. Roshi has more firepower than Nanoha does for god's sake, which is incredibly depressing when I think about it in that context.

Never seen any of those shows anyways.

[Shadell]

Are you trying to say that there's no difference in destructive power between a Starlight Breaker and an Accel Shooter?

Different attack spell types probably have different parameters and limitations, i.e. you can only channel so much mana into an Accel Shooter before the balls explode and ruin the spell. Starlight Breaker, being a torrent of magical energy gathered from the surrounding air, is only limited by how much mana it can collect, but like all beam-type spells, it only travels in one direction and is really easy to dodge unless Nanoha leads with an ACS Driver/Strike Flame attack.

Yes; but starlight breaker is clearly more destructive then other spells, and it's original incarnation had no special effects aside from massive firepower. (It later gained a barrier breaking ability; but that wasn't there originally if you look at the manga.)

So; what's the point of having an attack like SB if you're already weakening the power of your less damaging spells? It doesn't make sense to have so much more firepower and use it if you could simply up the power of another spell, thus the stun effect that you postulate shouldn't logically exist.

It's not just the destructive power of the spells that needs to be taken into account, it's also the versatility of those spells. Like any good weapon, an Accel Shooter will prove more ideal in some circumstances than a Divine Buster would, the same way an automatic rifle is more effective against infantry than a single-shot RPG.

Yes; but we're arguing about the stun

Wait, what? When did I say the physical attacks would be weak? I seem to recall a severely damaged Raising Heart putting up a barrier that could stop Graf Eisen until Vita pumped an extra cartridge into it. Obviously a good shield has an incredible amount of defensive power.

She didn't pump an extra cartridge; just screamed break through it. (Incidentally her hands mystically changed position half way through that attack.)

Also, we're talking about the physical component of Vice's attack.

Further, you said yourself that most shields have a physical effect, which I take to mean they are capable of blocking physical attacks. Given that virtually every mage in the series has one of these, it's probably not very likely to encounter a mage who doesn't have a physical shield; hell, it's Nanoha's most basic spell.

Exactly my point. Remember we're talking about Vice's attack. It shot somebody in the eye and didn't do lethal damage. What's the point of using a physical attack that weak with the goal of penetrating an enemy's shields?

Is it really that much more advanced? Sure they've got a lot of sci-fi stuff going on, but they still have things like cars and helicopters, and people are still using airports. The extent of Mid-Childan magic/technology fusion and the extent of non-magical technology is something that the series needs to elaborate on more before we can make anything besides bad guesswork as to its' nature.

Futuristic cars and helicopters with AI. Rather; the fact that their technology can even measure linker cores indicates that it must be far more advanced then ours in many areas.

They're also capable of creating cyborgs; an act that would require advanced medical technology, and a thorough understanding of the human body.

And exactly how badly wounded were they? I didn't see any serious wounds, no missing limbs, and most importantly, no shot-out eyes. All Shamal seemed to do was give them a second wind and fix up some cuts and scrapes they'd picked up.

I'm merely pointing out that healing magic exists. I seriously doubt that Shamal the self proclaimed curative magic specialist was demonstrating the full extent of her power when she cured some light wounds and restored some stamina.

Rather the series has curative magic. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that stronger curative magic exists, (Or repeated exposure to weaker magic.)

From what I know, the retina is largely made up of neurons. These cannot be regenerated by the human body if they're destroyed.

[Comartemis]

So; what's the point of having an attack like SB if you're already weakening the power of your less damaging spells?

Weakening how? By adding the stun effect?

Shades, I think I need to make something very clear here: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

The Belkan and Mid-Childan magic systems are two of the most well-developed aspects of the Nanohaverse, but magic itself is never explained very clearly beyond what Yuuno calls "spiritual energy" in the second episode. But beyond that, magic often functions in ways that don't necessarily make sense.

For instance, when Nanoha blasts through the walls of the Saint's Cradle in StrikerS, why did such a clearly destructive attack not instantly vaporize Quattro? The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that the mages have an incredible amount of control over the effects of their spells, even while said spell is in flight. Hence the stun effect; Nanoha alters the effect of DB at the last second so she can bring Quattro back to base in one piece. This also explains why Nanoha's Divine Shooter/Accel Shooter occasionally explode on impact but usually act like guided bullets.

The same thing goes for the melee weapons on occasion; one season Fate nearly decapitates Nanoha with an energy scythe, then two seasons later Fate smacks Jail with the broad side of a BFS made from the same energy. By all accounts his entire torso should have been erased, but instead Bardiche behaves a bit more like a real sword for that instant and we get a very satisfying moment when Jail goes flying like a baseball in the big leagues.

Conclusion? Seven Arcs is following the Rule of Cool for a lot of this series. Because admit it, little girls and big freaking energy blasts are a really really cool combination.

[Heaven's Deamon]

Also recall that 1. the Spells of Nanohaverse are also reffered to as
"Programs" Thus the "stun" effect could be a "sub-program" that can be turned on or off by the mage as needed.

2. most of the attacks we see used are against mages/knights/other magic users. In StrikerS at one point the Numbers with the "Deep Diver" IS asks Lutecia to turn off her field and barrier, this implies that a mage has certain protections that are constantly present while in their BJ, and possibly usable even without it. Thus the possiblity that some of the attacks used would kill a normal person that was hit by them, but doesn't do so to magic users because of these protections that take the brunt of the force, softening the blow.

[Shadell]

Weakening how? By adding the stun effect?

Lets assume you're using a potentially lethal weapon and modify it to only stun enemies. I'd say that's lowering its power a good deal.

Shades, I think I need to make something very clear here: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

The Belkan and Mid-Childan magic systems are two of the most well-developed aspects of the Nanohaverse, but magic itself is never explained very clearly beyond what Yuuno calls "spiritual energy" in the second episode. But beyond that, magic often functions in ways that don't necessarily make sense.

For instance, when Nanoha blasts through the walls of the Saint's Cradle in StrikerS, why did such a clearly destructive attack not instantly vaporize Quattro? The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that the mages have an incredible amount of control over the effects of their spells, even while said spell is in flight. Hence the stun effect; Nanoha alters the effect of DB at the last second so she can bring Quattro back to base in one piece. This also explains why Nanoha's Divine Shooter/Accel Shooter occasionally explode on impact but usually act like guided bullets.

Even accepting this; I'd have to say that Sailor Moon at her highest levels far exceed's Nanoha's power. (The ginzoushou is said to be able to destroy planets.) and that the only real advantage Nanoha has over most magical girls is that she's far more mobile and has enough of a brain to move around during a fight.

The same thing goes for the melee weapons on occasion; one season Fate nearly decapitates Nanoha with an energy scythe, then two seasons later Fate smacks Jail with the broad side of a BFS made from the same energy. By all accounts his entire torso should have been erased, but instead Bardiche behaves a bit more like a real sword for that instant and we get a very satisfying moment when Jail goes flying like a baseball in the big leagues.

She didn't actually draw blood in the attack, so it's hard to acknowledge exactly what effect the blade would have had. (It's about 20 minutes into episode 5 if you're looking for the scene.)

Conclusion? Seven Arcs is following the Rule of Cool for a lot of this series. Because admit it, little girls and big freaking energy blasts are a really really cool combination.

Agreed.

On a mostly unrelated note; has anyone heard any news about season 4? or is that still relatively unknown?

Also, why doesn't Mid-childa seem to have any child labor laws?

[Comartemis]

Lets assume you're using a potentially lethal weapon and modify it to only stun enemies. I'd say that's lowering its power a good deal.

Ah, but isn't power defined as the ability to enact a change or produce an effect? In that case you'd be exchanging "power to kill" for "power to incapacitate".

Not what you meant, I know, but something to think about.

She didn't actually draw blood in the attack, so it's hard to acknowledge exactly what effect the blade would have had.

She also ripped through a piece of Nanoha's barrier jacket in their last confrontation; I think there really is a blade to that scythe...

On a mostly unrelated note; has anyone heard any news about season 4? or is that still relatively unknown?

If anything has been said, I haven't heard it. I see fanart for a so-far-fictional 'Magical Girl Lyrical Vivio' from time to time on danbooru, though.