Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

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Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby darthdavid » Tue May 31, 2011 1:28 am

(This might look somewhat familiar if you post on spacebattles too :wink:)
Ok, here's what I have so far. I'd kind of like to write some stories in this setting and possibly even start a round robin or something of that nature. Here's my timeline so far:

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Sailor Moon/Stargate Fusion Timeline

~10000 BC: Last Alterans arrive on Earth from the Pegasus galaxy. As they slowly die off or achieve Ascension they notice that some of the locals are making use of an energy similar to, but distinct from, the powers of the Ascended. Most of the last living Alterans on the planet, practicing a policy of non-interference, make sure that their few remaining installations on the planet are stealthed against all possible detection by this energy before they die out. A small minority wish to aid the locals. Though any large scale help or transfer of technology would be quickly noticed (and quashed) they manage to discreetly teach a number of locals empiricism, the scientific method and reading and writing so that they have the tools to uplift themselves.

~9800 BC: The last Alterans have died or Ascended. Humanity's ability to use magic has grown by leaps and bounds thanks the empirical understanding of its nature that's being built up. The first pieces of Magitech (devices of mundane construction that make use of magical principles to operate) are being built. Magitech has three main impacts: it allows anyone to receive many of the benefits of magic regardless of their aptitude for casting, it greatly enhances the abilities of magic users and eventually, after much research, is able to perform feats that no human magic user could.

~9500 BC: The first Magitech spacecraft is launched. Soon a rush of colonization expands out into the solar system and artificial habitats are constructed on planets, moons, asteroids and as free floating space stations throughout the system.

~9300 BC: Independence movements form on several colonies but the central government on Earth, using limited concessions as a carrot and military force as a stick, is able to maintain it's grasp on the colonies.

~9100 BC: The situation finally boils over into a multiple sided civil war when The Colonial Governess of The Moon declares herself Queen of the Moon and calls the Earth King's bluff. The other colonies soon follow suit.

~9050 BC: With the creation of a Planetary Mana Tap(PMT) The Moon Kingdom not only secures it's independence from Earth, it gains the power to begin conquering the other colonies.

~9000 BC: The civil war is now over. The Moon Kingdom is now the uncontested ruler of the Solar System. Earth alone remains independent only because it was deemed too populous to conquer with only one PMT at their disposal and by the time the Moon Kingdom had subdued the other colonies and built the Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter PMTs* Earth had reverse engineered the technology and built their one of their own. Thus the Earth Kingdom was reduced to Earth itself and Silver Millennium was born from all it's former colonies.


*the PMTs for Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto wouldn't be built until years later


~8000 BC: Prince Endymion falls in love with Princess Serenity and begins to cheat on his fiancee, Beryl, with her. When Beryl finds out about this, not being the most mentally stable person to begin with, she cracks and summons Metallia. More or less caught with its pants down the Silver Millennium puts up no significant resistance as a huge percentage of its citizenry is converted into Youma which proceed to chow down on the remainder until Metallia sucks the magic out of the life support enchantments on each planet, killing off the few survivors that remained. Queen Serenity uses the Silver Imperium crystal manages to banish Beryl, Metallia and their minions to a pocket dimension (The Dark Kingdom). Knowing that that won't hold them forever and wanting to preserve something of her kingdom Queen Serenity sends the souls of her Senshi forward in time and hides the remains of her kingdom under powerful enchantments. The Silver Imperium crystal shatters under the stress and the strain of using that much power kills her.


The only survivors are on Earth and lacking the numbers, infrastructure and knowledge needed to maintain their civilization they quickly descend into barbarism.

~7000 BC: Ra arrives on Earth. (From this point on Stargate time-line follows canon, so he leaves in 3000 BC then etc etc etc...)

1969 AD:On July 20th Apollo 11 begins to land on the Moon. At ~500 Meters above the surface the Univeristy of The Moon (does anyone have a better name for this?) shimmers into view below them. Their discovery is broadcast to the world.
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I'll post more as I write it. I'd really like some input on where this should go and criticism of what I've done so far.

A few things I'm wondering about specifically:
How should the Soviets react? How quickly should the US begin to decipher Magitech/Training methods for Magic Users? Should the Stargate be activated at about the same time it was in Canon? What sort of power level should the world be at when the Stargate gets opened and what sort of political state would you expect the world to be in at that time? And just generally, where do you want to see this go?
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby frice2000 » Tue May 31, 2011 1:30 pm

1969 AD:On July 20th Apollo 11 begins to land on the Moon.

Up to this last point this sounds plausible. Here though it fails for me. How can you possibly even have close to Stargate canon when you've basically already given the discovery of what will at first be thought, 'alien magical base'. Thus when the Stargate is discovered and activated we're going to be a lot more prepared with a lot more technology and/or magic. The whole point of Stargate in the first place was that we started at near the bottom of the barrel tech wise and slowly built our way up. Shifting this power balance and ALSO making the existence of alien civilizations known for 30 or more years before Stargate activation should likely make all of Stargate canon unrecognizable. Think it would be far better for the moon tech to not be discovered until the regular Stargate timeline either at the start to have some sort of competition with the tech and knowledge the SG teams are discovering versus the technology a separate Moon agency is discovering. That could be interesting with the Senshi in the background.

I suppose it could make sense if you gave more details on what you plan on doing with the Earth getting advanced so quickly with Moon tech versus the Stargate program that comes later...but overall doesn't sound great at all. On the other hand removing the Stargate bits sounds like it could be a pretty interesting pure SM story. Otherwise though, probably not a very good Stargate story no common points with canon it'd feel way too disconnected.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby Pale Wolf » Tue May 31, 2011 7:26 pm

Well, it's not like going AU is a bad thing. It's a fusion of timelines, which results in a different series of events. The characters would have a different history, but you can easily make 'em recognizeable.

Fundamentally, I think the entire point of this would be not being close to Stargate canon.

To be honest, the 'starting at the bottom of the barrel' part is the most frustrating part of Stargate, when it comes to writing fiction. You need to depict a long, slow level grind. And the Star Trek, early Stargate 'exploration' formula is quite workable for an episodic show, but it's not the only way to write. Some people want to start... you know, a little differently.

Not like twenty years is going to turn Earth into a high-power spacefaring state, anyway. They'll still be at the bottom, they'll just have something to work with.

Now, as far as the ideas. I say try to go far away from Stargate in one respect, in the 'stop screwing over the Russians' sense.

As far as what happens, here's one key point - the Outer Space Treaty bans any nation from claiming ownership of anything in space. That means legally, the US is required to publicize/share everything on their discovery.

Now, practically speaking, whether the US will actually do it or not is unknown. Richard Nixon is President right now, and the Vietnam War is still in place, so... most likely not. The value of the site is obvious - it's ruins belonging to a spacefaring civilization. With a big breach of international law like that, we can expect to see some more heat in the Cold War.

If the US breaches their treaty obligations, the Soviet Union will most likely formally announce a hiatus on the treaty on their part until the US follows it - this will mean militarization of space, most likely trying to set up a blockade preventing NATO access (in our history, the Soviet space program basically died after the US won the Moon Race for lack of funding and enthusiasm, but in this timeline, they'd still have plenty to do up there). NATO will obviously respond in kind while loudly decrying the Soviet Union for said breach in treaty, so practically speaking, nobody will be able to get to it unless both sides agree to let a multilateral group do so. Simply put, nobody is getting on that rock unless both the Soviet Union and the United States want them there.

If someone tries, they will likely be warned off, and if they press it, shot down. This could well kick off WWIII - it'll be three-way, China versus US versus Sovu. Practically speaking, at this point the Soviet Union is the most likely winner/survivor - the US has a lot of its shit sunk into Vietnam and its 'containment' strategy, while the Soviet Union's shit is still in place. China has numbers but isn't really credible opposition to the Soviets, so what you'd see would be a hissing match on the China/Sovu border that might heat up, while the Soviet Union marches west to do some crunching on the US's allies. The next stage would be a nuclear first strike from NATO in an attempt to deter the assault - the Soviet Union may be able to stop or blunt it with Spetsnaz (that's basically their entire job), and if not, will retaliate on positions in Europe. During this period, the US will be trying to get Vietnam wrapped up, and get its shit into Western Europe to deal with the Soviets. Success is unlikely - they have a huge logistics gap here, and if the Soviet Union can pull a shipping interdiction strategy, they win. Continental invasion of the United States won't happen, though - that was never in the Soviet plans and all they'd want is a surrender. Then we can look at the Moon.

If one would prefer to avoid this path, then let's not have anyone try and break the blockade - instead, they find common ground and work together to investigate the moon site.

Either way, deciphering it would take... some time. First you need to unleash the humanities and linguistics geeks on it to figure out what the fuck it's all saying. Then you need to stare a bit as they babble about magic before someone actually looks into it. Then you can get started, and it'll take a while - you have a blueprint, but you still need to figure it out for yourself.

In general, I'd say the Cold War is over, one way or the other - either the world is irradiated to shit (let's avoid this, nobody's stupid enough to fire that much), the Soviet Union forced a decisive withdrawal from Eurasia out of the US and with the extra industry will basically invert the canonical end of the Cold War (with the Soviet Union as the remaining hyperpower, and the US probably going back into isolationism), or they finally managed to talk and stop biting each other.

The Stargate... interesting question there. In canon, the Stargate got left alone until SG-1 came back (to 1969) and showed them, on camera, how to use it. If SG-1 doesn't come back, the gate never comes out of storage (in which case, the first time the SG timeline kicks in is either 2000 when the Eurondans call through the gate, or whenever you decide to have Ra get bored and come back to Earth).

If SG-1 does come back, then... it'd be an SG-1 from this timeline. Probably. Temporal and alternate universe mechanics are uneven in Stargate, but I think time travel only goes back to your own past. Fundamentally they'd still probably do the same stuff, so interest in the gate would return, but be mostly subsumed by the interest in the Moon. It'd take longer for them to figure it out because everyone'd be devoting less effort to it.

Or, if the US shares the gate with the Soviet Union, it'd take about five minutes to figure out, since the Soviets have the DHD.

In option B, with Soviets won Cold War and the Moon site and the US went back to isolationism, the gate would be opened around the same time, since the US would be focusing on it as their fallback artifact of awesome.

Power levelwise, in option B, the US would be a bit behind real life, since they had less resources to do it with. The Soviet Union would have a basic grasp on the Moontech, most likely with a few magically trained and some magitech getting worked on and integrated. And quite a bit farther in conventional technology as well - without their economy crashing, they wouldn't have to cancel and cut back on so many of their projects as they did in real life.

In the 'everyone stops being idiots' timeline option, if they share the gate, we're looking at basic 1970s Earth when the gate gets opened (yay DHD!). Maybe some basics on magic and mages, and since this'd be onscreen we can accelerate development afterward, but basically 1970s with some magic added.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby frice2000 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:30 pm

The characters would have a different history, but you can easily make 'em recognizeable.

Not really. Carter would probably likely want to be on the cutting edge meaning she would be with the Moon expedition and research agencies, likely having little to nothing to do with the Stargate once it is discovered. Perhaps when it's opened but she'd likely be quite strongly established into the other major research entity. Dr. Jackson would likely have his theories widely accepted in academia considering the findings on the Moon and thus wouldn't have the impetus to join in a military program that would only further prove this intervention. Perhaps you could argue that his theories of aliens in Egypt are still making him a laughing stock but I find that hard to justify with public knowledge and research about an alien civilization on the Moon. Colonel/General O'Neill would likely be a much more experienced fighter what with the Cold War getting likely very hot over the discoveries on the Moon. This could easily give him a totally different more no nonsense persona and the happy go lucky Jack of the Stargate timeline would have far more difficulty coming about. Teal'C would by this scenario be the ONLY character that shouldn't be radically different by these discoveries.

To be honest, the 'starting at the bottom of the barrel' part is the most frustrating part of Stargate, when it comes to writing fiction. You need to depict a long, slow level grind.

Then start later in the timeline. Personally I found that to be THE BEST part of Stargate. The whole evolution of humanity from bit players barely holding on against a opponent beyond us but at the same time learning at an extreme rate. Stargate to me showcased the whole military mindset of our species and our adaptability. I think my very favorite scene in all of Stargate was when we fired a missile at a Gou'ald through the gate and blew him up satisfyingly. Us using the technology we have to kill the baddies in a plausible fashion. The later seasons where we gradually became stronger and stronger only for our ships to be destroyed easily by the Ori were disappointing and a waste. Series should have ended at the Battle of Antarctica as that really showed what we had become from the start of the show. If you liked it past that point then we have a huge gulf between what I think was Stargate and what you do and as such doubt I'd be at all interested in the same stories you would be regarding it.

Not like twenty years is going to turn Earth into a high-power spacefaring state, anyway. They'll still be at the bottom, they'll just have something to work with.

Ummm...No. In like ten years with little to moderate help from the Asgard we went from our current level of technology to space travel within Stargate canon. Think it's pretty likely if the materials and learning elements we need are at the moon in this proposed timeline by the time 30 years would have passed in addition to the threat that other Moon tech will likely make the Russians we'll be heavily advanced in space travel and tech methods of the Moon Kingdom. How else do you explain the Stargate source material and our rapid technological development? Obviously the Asgard and Tok'ra helped out a bit but Prometheus was largely our own reverse engineering of Goau'ld tech why should the Moon technology which according to the proposed timeline is a School not have even better instructional materials in building of spacecraft. Due to that again I say this is broken.

the Outer Space Treaty bans any nation from claiming ownership of anything in space. That means legally, the US is required to publicize/share everything on their discovery.

That dies the second we start the commercialization of space in reality with the mining of Asteroids and other celestial bodies. It'd die quite quickly here. We'd probably break up the Moon like we did in real world Antarctica into various different research facilities for both the Soviets and NATO nations more then likely. I never thought the nations getting together behind the SGC or having complete joint development and research in Stargate canon was particularly realistic as I'm pretty sure a lot would be withheld. That is partially explainable there what with the alien threat to the entire planet but in this timeline likely no joint development in my opinion.

With a big breach of international law like that, we can expect to see some more heat in the Cold War.

The Soviets would likely spend a shit ton of money and lives and get to the Moon and claim their own section of it while we'll have theres. Honestly don't think it'd do anything to the Cold War other then moving it into outer-space. Again that would be very interesting to read but I'm not seeing how Stargate fits in here other then entirely peripherally. A pure SM fic with this kind of back-story leads to a very different world for the girls growing up and I think would be quite good it's just I'm not seeing how Stargate adds anything here other then character fodder.

If someone tries, they will likely be warned off, and if they press it, shot down. This could well kick off WWIII

Over finding artifacts of unknown value on the Moon you think that leads directly to World War 3? I think tensions would mount but I think you're slightly overestimating the doom and gloom here. Militarization of space yes, but I think a more peaceful but not joint exploration would be the result. And honestly if the Soviets had invaded Europe England nukes them anyway regardless of what we do...So total nuclear war and mostly everyone is dead. And the West's nukes at the time were far superior to the Soviets while there would be a lot more damage over a wider area the Soviets would likely have their entire infrastructure successfully destroyed in a nuclear war at the time and more then likely NATO would come out the 'winner' as much as there would have been one with this scenario.

and break the blockade

I find it difficult to imagine the US could be barricaded from launching spacecraft or that the Soviets could successfully launch enough craft to militarily be effective with 1960's/70's hardware. It's still hard to fight in space NOW with our current level of technology and there would be little if any preparation for anything resembling a blockade. Perhaps they would destroy our launch facilities but then we'd destroy theres and...no one wins and nothing happens.

In general, I'd say the Cold War is over, one way or the other

Again pretty sure you're discounting the effect of the other European powers here. They'll launch EVERYTHING if the Soviets are invading them.

Soviets won Cold War and the Moon site and the US went back to isolationism, the gate would be opened around the same time, since the US would be focusing on it as their fallback artifact of awesome.

Minus winning the Cold War that would be the most intriguing idea I think you presented. Change around a couple events in history and have the Soviets be the ones to first land on the Moon due to American setbacks or simple lack of funding or drive from someone like Kennedy. Thus the Soviets begin their research and we begin ours and with the advances the Cold War continues with the rapidly gaining technology and interest from BOTH sides...That would be a neat backdrop and I could see SG-1 coming into existence there. The problem then is fitting SM believably into that militaristic and tense a overtone as that story would seem a bit lighter...Japan being a NATO nation though and with the Senshi coming into existence and possibly changing the balance the Soviets have there since they are the direct descendants...That would be interesting.

Maybe some basics on magic and mages

Again not saying you would be wrong in reality but in Stargate canon humanity learns and advances IMMENSELY faster then that.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby Pale Wolf » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:05 pm

Colonel/General O'Neill would likely be a much more experienced fighter what with the Cold War getting likely very hot over the discoveries on the Moon. This could easily give him a totally different more no nonsense persona and the happy go lucky Jack of the Stargate timeline would have far more difficulty coming about.


He already fought in the Cold War. He was black ops, that was what he did with his time.

Honestly, if the Cold War got hot he'd actually be more laid back - at least the fighting and operations he did would feel less bordering-on-evil-hopefully-the-people-giving-orders-know-what-they're-doing. Remember, the man responded to someone pointing out that Teal'c, as First Prime of Apophis had been ordered to do damned distasteful things... by pointing out that at the behest of the United States government, he had done just as bad, or bad enough that there's no point comparing.

Jack is special forces. They are almost never no-nonsense - their nonsense is without compare. They get the job done, but they are goofing off and arguing with each other the whole time. If you can't keep your sense of humour, there's no way you'll last - that's Jack.

Jack is not happy-go-lucky. He knows exactly how black the world can get.

He just doesn't care.

Personally I found that to be THE BEST part of Stargate. The whole evolution of humanity from bit players barely holding on against a opponent beyond us but at the same time learning at an extreme rate. Stargate to me showcased the whole military mindset of our species and our adaptability. I think my very favorite scene in all of Stargate was when we fired a missile at a Gou'ald through the gate and blew him up satisfyingly. Us using the technology we have to kill the baddies in a plausible fashion.


Agreed. I loved that scene as well.

Series should have ended at the Battle of Antarctica as that really showed what we had become from the start of the show.


Gyaaaah, you kidding? That was the last part I saw (I couldn't afford the other DVDs...), and frankly, it was the worst. That didn't show what we had become. That showed 'oh fuck, we don't actually have any possible way for our heroes to win this with grit, determination, and cleverness, let's give them some godlike technology out of nowhere!'

It was a hamfisted plot development that seems to shift a major shift in the show from 'Humanity, Fuck Yeah' to 'Ancients, Fuck Yeah'.

F-302s versus Gliders? Awesome. Prometheus tangling with the fleet? Awesome. Squid-missiles out of nowhere sweeping away the entire enemy fleet and rendering all humanity's efforts pointless? ... Uh, what?

That's my problem with the 'total bottom of the barrel' start. It relies on plot mechanics, insane coincidence, and stockpiles of retardedly overpowered ubertech to keep the protagonists alive. Not initially, but Stargate ran on long enough that by Season 7, they had to reach straight into the toilet to figure out how anyone would survive anything big.

And it creates an inherent plot where the sole objective - when you strip away the fanciness - is level-grinding. You can skip three quarters of the episodes of Stargate if you want to. While they're well-made and entertaining, they yield no result on the plot, they hold no impact on characterization, and they're basically the equivalent of a Warcraft guild diving into a dungeon for the adventure of the week while looking for the phat lootz that will get them to be awesome, someday.

Just start them of at least moderate awesome (or at least, with the tools to get that way) and focus on plot, character... something other than another planet-of-the-week plotline.

Ummm...No. In like ten years with little to moderate help from the Asgard we went from our current level of technology to space travel within Stargate canon. Think it's pretty likely if the materials and learning elements we need are at the moon in this proposed timeline by the time 30 years would have passed in addition to the threat that other Moon tech will likely make the Russians we'll be heavily advanced in space travel and tech methods of the Moon Kingdom. How else do you explain the Stargate source material and our rapid technological development? Obviously the Asgard and Tok'ra helped out a bit but Prometheus was largely our own reverse engineering of Goau'ld tech why should the Moon technology which according to the proposed timeline is a School not have even better instructional materials in building of spacecraft. Due to that again I say this is broken.


Hey, I agree. Space travel.

But 'space travel' does not equal '32 000 times the speed of light galactic empires'. Even if Earth colonized the entire Solar System, and fully equalled the Moon Kingdom in every respect... we'd still be smaller than the goa'uld - the smallest System Lord would have more territory and armaments than Earth. We'd have an industrial advantage, so long-term Earth would overwhelm... but long-term is very long-term, the goa'uld have been building their shit for around 30 000 years, even if they don't build fast they've got plenty of stockpiles. This is completely discounting the Replicators, Ori, etc.

In canon, Earth got lucky - they were small enough to pretty much ignore while they built up, tough and resourceful enough to take down the small forces put out to crush them, and they then found Ancient Lolubertech basically the minute someone actually took them seriously.

That dies the second we start the commercialization of space in reality with the mining of Asteroids and other celestial bodies. It'd die quite quickly here.


Yeah, whether it's followed is another matter. And long-term, it's likely unsustainable, and sooner or later someone's gonna give the one year requisite notice and withdraw from it. I was just pointing out what they technically made a binding promise to do - the probability of it being done being quite low.

We'd probably break up the Moon like we did in real world Antarctica into various different research facilities for both the Soviets and NATO nations more then likely.


That's another possible outcome, yeah. I was gonna mention it but sort of got into the WW3 concern.

I never thought the nations getting together behind the SGC or having complete joint development and research in Stargate canon was particularly realistic as I'm pretty sure a lot would be withheld.


It was. It was very realistic, but also very dickish - the US promised Russia full technology sharing, in exchange for Russia shutting down their gate program.

29 episodes later, over a year, the Russians still haven't got anything. They allow the Americans to use their gate to withdraw personnel from offworld while the US gate is offline, purely out of common decency. They then give the US their DHD, in exchange for a new deal - 'give us that tech you promised in the first place'.

They got naquadah reactors. Another nine episodes later, Chekov storms into Hammond's office, rather reasonably pissed off that the US was developing a space interceptor while completely cutting the Russians out of it (again).

Again that would be very interesting to read but I'm not seeing how Stargate fits in here other then entirely peripherally. A pure SM fic with this kind of back-story leads to a very different world for the girls growing up and I think would be quite good it's just I'm not seeing how Stargate adds anything here other then character fodder.


A fair point - honestly, the SM side of this is much more interesting due to that.

Over finding artifacts of unknown value on the Moon you think that leads directly to World War 3? I think tensions would mount but I think you're slightly overestimating the doom and gloom here.


It's highly possible. Not in general terms, but 1969 is very nearly the absolute hottest part of the Cold War. Brezhnev is not the coolest-headed guy the Soviets ever put up as leader, and neither is Nixon (frankly, the only ones worse than these two are Reagan and Andropov in the 80s). At this exact moment, the Vietnam War is still under way. The United States is in the process of dropping more bombs over Cambodia than were ever dropped during World War II. The Cuban Missile Crisis was barely a few years ago.

If the United States and Russia actually start shooting at each other, the whole thing could go off like a powder keg at this stage of the Cold War.

Remember, the exact value of these artifacts is unknown, but it's known to be extremely high - these are the remains of a spacefaring society. Which means these people had economical spacelift, life support, apparently holograms or illusions or something crazy just going by the fact that the university appeared in front of their faces... the potential applications of simply the technologies you can assume to exist with a basic guess are absolutely staggering. Nobody wants the Cold War to heat up over this, but if someone's stupid enough to push it, it will.

I mostly had to spend so much text on it since it's a big topic. Practically speaking, I'd imagine anyone put in charge of a spacecraft would be smart enough to see the writing on the wall and not push it.

Militarization of space yes, but I think a more peaceful but not joint exploration would be the result.


Ideally. But sane people have difficulty comprehending the Cold War.

And honestly if the Soviets had invaded Europe England nukes them anyway regardless of what we do...


Yup. NATO launches first nuclear strike, because frankly there is just no way they're beating the Soviets conventionally (the British and German armed forces, the biggest guns among the Western European forces, put together, equal about a third of the modern-day Russian military - as in, the much-diminished-from-heights-of-Soviet-power military). The US has more forces, but they have to actually get them there, and that's very difficult .

So total nuclear war and mostly everyone is dead. And the West's nukes at the time were far superior to the Soviets while there would be a lot more damage over a wider area the Soviets would likely have their entire infrastructure successfully destroyed in a nuclear war at the time and more then likely NATO would come out the 'winner' as much as there would have been one with this scenario.


Honestly? Depending on the timeframe of the war, shooting at the infrastructure may be utterly and completely pointless. It's generally assumed to be so, and given how rapidly the Soviets would be advancing (bear in mind, when they were at the top of their form in WWII, they conquered an area equating to roughly the size of Western Europe within a week and a half - Manchuria), the early phases of the war would be over within, like, months.

Industry doesn't factor in to that. Nuking the infrastructure, cities, etcetera... that's not a strategic move, that's pure, out-and-out bitchery. Assuming they target competently, infrastructure strikes will only be at the very end. Nuclear first strikes will be on command keystones and military concentrations.

This is still, again, assuming NATO's nukes actually launch in significant numbers. Preventing that is precisely what Spetsnaz exists for, and they are very good. Even assuming they fire, while NATO's nukes may have the edge (I wouldn't say 'far superiour', if I'd say superiour at all - MIRVs don't exist yet, or at least won't in significant numbers, and both sides have ICBMs, Russia actually developed them first though they have less), the Soviet Union has a major edge in anti-ballistic-missile systems - they put out the A-35 six years before the US got their Spartans rolled out. The ABM treaty hasn't come into place to reduce the amount of this hardware, which means this edge remains the same.

It will be very difficult to nuke the Soviet Union.

And then they get to shoot back. Again, unless they're spectacularly stupid, infrastructure strikes won't be on the menu unless they feel like tossing them at the US, whose ABM coverage is much lesser. We'll be seeing small-scale, tactical usage - blow away defensive strongpoints and make their way through.

End result, nukes cancel out nukes, and Soviet wins conventional within months. If the US launches, we'll see some damage to Soviet infrastructure, which they will promptly replace with the Western European - because the timeframe of the war is simply too short for the infrastructure damage to actually come into play - and at least equal damage to the US infrastructure. NATO has more to toss, but the Soviet Union has some monstrously effective defences.

I find it difficult to imagine the US could be barricaded from launching spacecraft or that the Soviets could successfully launch enough craft to militarily be effective with 1960's/70's hardware. It's still hard to fight in space NOW with our current level of technology and there would be little if any preparation for anything resembling a blockade. Perhaps they would destroy our launch facilities but then we'd destroy theres and...no one wins and nothing happens.


Yup. No one wins. Bear in mind that it's hard to fight in space for both sides. Launching attacks or major combat operations in space? Not happening.

But all you have to do to prevent a ship from making it to the Moon is intercept it anywhere along the three-day trip. There are a limited amount of orbitals that take you to the desired location at any given time, and all you really need to do to scrub a mission entirely is force them to maneuver to evade... thereby using up the fuel and positioning they required to get there and back - if they're lucky, they can still scrub the mission and get home.

Blockading space in general? Ridiculous. But with our current technology, there are sharp limits on the paths we can take, and we have to launch from specific sites and there's only one particular site we want to get to.

Change around a couple events in history and have the Soviets be the ones to first land on the Moon due to American setbacks or simple lack of funding or drive from someone like Kennedy. Thus the Soviets begin their research and we begin ours and with the advances the Cold War continues with the rapidly gaining technology and interest from BOTH sides...That would be a neat backdrop and I could see SG-1 coming into existence there.


Hm, I like this idea too, except gah, the level-grinding...

The problem then is fitting SM believably into that militaristic and tense a overtone as that story would seem a bit lighter...Japan being a NATO nation though and with the Senshi coming into existence and possibly changing the balance the Soviets have there since they are the direct descendants...That would be interesting.


Heh. SM wouldn't necessarily be lighter. To be sure, if you did anything with the setting at all, the tone certainly wouldn't match that of Sailor Moon, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a valid tone to work with.

Again not saying you would be wrong in reality but in Stargate canon humanity learns and advances IMMENSELY faster then that.


Sure, mine was a realism assessment, not a 'plot demands!' assessment.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby frice2000 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:01 pm

That showed 'oh fuck, we don't actually have any possible way for our heroes to win this with grit, determination, and cleverness, let's give them some godlike technology out of nowhere!'

Heh...While the 'find the Ancient outpost' thing was a tad annoying it still showed our evolution as a species and power nicely. The Prometheus and 302's kicking ass and just feeling like a whole wrap to the series worked really well there. After that point we were the top species. Anubis was a cheating Ancient tech using ass anyway and the Goau'ld are now fearing us mightily since they think we could kill them all if we felt like it. The series really just started to drag from then on. The show could have ended there on a high note and SHOULD have then been spun off into another series without the SG-1 name. Instead Sci-Fi dragged the series on longer and while a pretty good spin-off in Atlantis finally did occur the next season SG-1 was never the same.

Perhaps the ending to Season 8 with Moebius could've served as a good send off as well but Season 9 and 10 were idiotic. Breaking off into another series taking place from the SGC with the SG-1 characters in the periphery at that point would've made the Stargate name continue on far longer more then likely. Very interesting plots could've taken place from there with other teams being focused on operating out of the SGC both in space and the traditional through the gate type episodes. While Atlantis was a good series with some very good characters it suffered in my mind from the military disconnect that was so strong in it's parent series. Then came Universe and two officers having sex in a closet in NORAD within the first five minutes and I realized the series was good and dead. After attempting to watch a couple episodes here and there I realized Universe was the height of awfulness and had nothing that grabbed my attention like SG-1 did.

by Season 7, they had to reach straight into the toilet to figure out how anyone would survive anything big.

And then a few seasons later it became 'Far'gate Sg-1 and became awful at least ending it at 7 would've been a higher note then anything later.

when you strip away the fanciness - is level-grinding. You can skip three quarters of the episodes of Stargate if you want to. While they're well-made and entertaining, they yield no result on the plot, they hold no impact on characterization

Umm...It's episodic Sci-Fi that pretty much damns the entire genre. There are very few Sci-fi shows and actually shows in general where each episode is a 'must watch'. Frankly, those shows that do have massive character development with each show usually become quite annoying to follow long term for me simply because they get so exhausting keeping all the facts and revelations in mind. I much prefer a more plodding pace. That's not to say you can't write fanfiction different then this since you can easily only write about the interesting aspects but development was the main point of Stargate in the first place without that the series isn't Stargate anymore it becomes another bland clone. You're stripping the uniqueness of Stargate away if you have them move their starting point so far forward.

Just start them of at least moderate awesome (or at least, with the tools to get that way) and focus on plot, character... something other than another planet-of-the-week plotline.

Tools to get that way fine. Not another planet of the week plot-line also fine. Starting out more advanced doesn't work you're breaking the series fundamentally.

the smallest System Lord would have more territory and armaments than Earth

You would have enough power with Moon Kingdom technology to give an individual to blow up entire planets and reboot time and resurrect people and you're telling me that the System lords have better weapons? I really really don't think so. More territory and access to more resources at the start yes. Better weapons hell no. In fact Earth in the canon SG-1 universe had better infantry weapons from the beginning. If we sent a M1A1 or IFV through the gate (which they only didn't do on the series due to budgetary restrictions) we would've wholesale slaughtered groupings of Jaffa and their weapons. It wouldn't have even been close. Yes the gliders were a worry but they could be taken down with RPGs as we saw on numerous occasions. Add walking magical weapons of mass destruction to that scenario and we win pretty much all ground battles. Space/air battles are far more questionable though yes...But considering that it's quite likely that they wouldn't know who the hell they were fighting I doubt the Goaul'd would have found Earth quickly or expected us to be behind their difficulties that quickly and the tech we would easily take in that scenario and the easily impressionable Jaffa seeing people using actual magic...again breaking Stargate badly.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby Pale Wolf » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:01 pm

Heh...While the 'find the Ancient outpost' thing was a tad annoying it still showed our evolution as a species and power nicely. The Prometheus and 302's kicking ass and just feeling like a whole wrap to the series worked really well there.


To be honest, I'd have loved to see conventional jets ripping up the gliders. Show the real difference between a Bronze Age mindset and a modern-era one.

I can't comment on the later progression, of course.

Umm...It's episodic Sci-Fi that pretty much damns the entire genre. There are very few Sci-fi shows and actually shows in general where each episode is a 'must watch'. Frankly, those shows that do have massive character development with each show usually become quite annoying to follow long term for me simply because they get so exhausting keeping all the facts and revelations in mind. I much prefer a more plodding pace. That's not to say you can't write fanfiction different then this since you can easily only write about the interesting aspects but development was the main point of Stargate in the first place without that the series isn't Stargate anymore it becomes another bland clone. You're stripping the uniqueness of Stargate away if you have them move their starting point so far forward.


I'll admit I much prefer the pacing of anime - every episode actually matters, and they have a manageable number of them. You don't need to follow a 'relevant progression every episode' series over the long term, because they don't need to sprawl out over nine years of coverage to cover a storyline. You could cut most of the early seasons down to five episodes apiece if you focused on plot progression.

And fiction-wise, one would generally want to write to the same paradigm. Episodic adventure-of-the-week is nutfuckingly boring. Best to stick to the actual interesting stuff. And a level-grinding plot is only one step less boring than adventure-of-the-week. Except it sort of requires AotW too - time must be marked while waiting for the awesome to be developed.

And really... of course it's not Stargate anymore. We don't have Richard Dean Anderson on tap here. It's something written with Stargate's universe and characters as a launching point. That's what fanfic is, by definition. If one wants more of the original... watch the original. There are two streams of fanfic thought - one is 'more of the same because it was cool', and the other is 'hm, what would happen if we did this instead, would it be awesome?' Neither's invalid.

You would have enough power with Moon Kingdom technology to give an individual to blow up entire planets and reboot time and resurrect people and you're telling me that the System lords have better weapons?


*Notes that Baal is reputed for having blown up two stars, and as much as the 'blow up a sun' bit is attributed to Carter, it was a Tok'Ra plan*

In fact Earth in the canon SG-1 universe had better infantry weapons from the beginning. If we sent a M1A1 or IFV through the gate (which they only didn't do on the series due to budgetary restrictions) we would've wholesale slaughtered groupings of Jaffa and their weapons. It wouldn't have even been close.


Yeah, on-ground Earth absolutely massacres.

Problem is, it goes the other way 'round in space. And since they can just drop 200-megaton bombs from space without ever going onto the ground... that was the whole issue.

And even if Moon Kingdom tech has the advantage in terms of power, there simply isn't gonna be enough of it, nor will they have enough mobility. They'll have to spread out to protect things, while the goa'uld can, if they want, concentrate every ha'tak in the galaxy on one target and then have 'em run off before the bulk of the fleet gets there.

Yes the gliders were a worry but they could be taken down with RPGs as we saw on numerous occasions.


Or grenade launchers. The death gliders are so not a worry, seeing them outright comforts me. Actual dedicated AA would rape them.

the easily impressionable Jaffa seeing people using actual magic...again breaking Stargate badly.


The goa'uld already do the same kind of shit. Just because one is called 'magic' and the other is called 'technology' doesn't mean the jaf'fa can tell the difference.

For that matter, it doesn't mean there functionally is a difference. Sufficiently understood magic is a technology, insufficiently-known technology is called magic. Power is power, and the goa'uld (or, for that matter, modern-day humanity) have more legitimate claim on deityhood than the gods of ancient myth.

What sounded unimaginable and godlike to peoples of the Bronze Age... is sorta old hat to us.

Stargate really fucked that up. It didn't run the jaf'fa as what they were - Bronze Age tribes given weapons and duties by their gods. It basically treated them as Christians in funny hats.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby frice2000 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:41 pm

I can't comment on the later progression, of course.

Summarization: Goua'ld are afraid of us they make treaties with us. Anubis survives and makes trouble but we kill him again. Replicators make trouble we find ancient artifact and kill them again. We fight evil Ancients who use basically magic and have tons of followers that worship them as Gods and bestow powers and crazily advanced technology to others. We figure out using technology how to block their powers but then use ancient artifact and kill them all. End of series with two poor movies and dies with a whimper. Watch Atlantis though if you want a pretty interesting Stargate series it's pretty good don't bother with seasons 9 and 10 of Sg-1 although you would likely want to see the Season 8 two part finale Mobieus (Part 1), (Part 2) it's pretty good. Oh and Episode 200 is great as well. Other then those three episodes nothing much was great after the end of Season 7.

'hm, what would happen if we did this instead, would it be awesome?

I have no problem with AU's in general however I maintain that you have to keep certain rules in mind. You can't just take a universe and strip it of all that makes it unique and interesting or else you aren't writing fanfiction you're writing an original story. As much as I enjoy Sunny's stories for example they aren't fanfiction anymore. The characters share little in common but their names at this point in the game they are original stories now. In Sunny's case they are still good to read since he is a good enough writer to keep them interesting but usually for most authors of 'fanfiction' when they do this they either aren't skilled enough to make the characters interesting or they do things with canon characters that I find either stupid or immensely sickening. If this can be justified fine, but I've seen no evidence of the original posters writing thus far so I go back to a percentage where I'd say more then ninety percent or more of fanfics that break all character and universe rules just become awful. It's rare indeed when a author can make the characters their own. Keeping anchors in place is important almost always and this timeline again breaks almost all of them. In fact again I don't think you can justify the characters being at all in common with their canon portrayal. It remains to be seen then if the author can make them interesting with so broken and different a origin. It's possible that the author could but again I just find it unlikely.

*Notes that Baal is reputed for having blown up two stars, and as much as the 'blow up a sun' bit is attributed to Carter, it was a Tok'Ra plan*

Except that all requires massive amounts of bombardment by them and a ton of resources while on the other-hand...yeah.
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Re: Untitled Stargate/Sailor Moon Timeline

Postby Pale Wolf » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:57 pm

The thing is...

Crappy ideas by crappy authors suck. Good ideas by crappy authors... also suck.

You're absolutely right that a good author can make any idea good, but I think it's a mistake to think that there's any idea that a poor author can make good.

Give 'im the freedom to try. If it doesn't interest you, it's a couple kilobytes on the net, easy enough not to bother with. If he makes it good, then we've got something good to read. If he doesn't make it good but it still interests you, then provide advice by which he can make it good, and become good himself.

All authors suck at the beginning. The only way they stop sucking is by keeping at it. The idea itself isn't bad. The author might be... but he ain't gonna stop being so if he doesn't write something.
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