Here's a thought for a Naruto fic...

[Moshulel]

If by the latest chapters you mean 315, I have read it. Kakashi explicitly states that he can't match Naruto in KB because of the chakra consumption. He never mentions that the technique requires insane skill to learn. Additionaly despite the fact that it is origonally refered to as Kinjutsu (Forbidden Jutsu) almost every ninja above genin level appears to know about it. Many can do it. Additionaly it is explicitly stated in the chunin exam finals that KB is a Jounin level jutsu because it consumes a lot of chakra.

Every ninja above genin level? Are you so certain about this fact? I would check my facts first before rushing to post.

No.... Sakura learned tree walking after seeing it once. Naruto spent a lot of time at the pool. Then Jiraiya showed up. Then he spent more time on the lake. True his chakra was messed up, however even taking that into account it took him a lot longer then it took Sakura to master tree walking.

You seem to conveniently forget that Naruto had a seal on him that made chakra control impossible. Try taking Sakura's chakra control and see what you get. When the seal was lifted he managed to walk on water in an instant.

[Shadell]

Uh, as I recall, Ebisu started teaching Naruto the technique, and Naruto couldn't do it. That is true.
However, Naruto was still suffering the effects of Orochimaru's Five Element Seal, which was further impairing his already poor control by cutting off the flow of chakra from the Ninetails -- which Naruto was at least *used to*, because he'd had it all his life.
Once Jiraiya broke that seal of Orochimaru's, Naruto was able to stand on water immediately. Clearly he already knew how to -- the extra seal just didn't permit him to.

Not necassarily. Remember he did improve while under the seal from falling in the water immediatly, to being able to sort of stand on it a little. Thus he did master it quickly, but no where near as quickly as Sakura.

No.... Sakura learned tree walking after seeing it once. Naruto spent a lot of time at the pool. Then Jiraiya showed up. Then he spent more time on the lake. True his chakra was messed up, however even taking that into account it took him a lot longer then it took Sakura to master tree walking.

And I didn't forget, I just didn't feel a need to explain it as thoroughly until you posted.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If by the latest chapters you mean 315, I have read it. Kakashi explicitly states that he can't match Naruto in KB because of the chakra consumption. He never mentions that the technique requires insane skill to learn. Additionaly despite the fact that it is origonally refered to as Kinjutsu (Forbidden Jutsu) almost every ninja above genin level appears to know about it. Many can do it. Additionaly it is explicitly stated in the chunin exam finals that KB is a Jounin level jutsu because it consumes a lot of chakra.

Every ninja above genin level? Are you so certain about this fact? I would check my facts first before rushing to post.

I said almost. And lets go through a list here. Zabuza had his water clones which got almost the same effect, albeit without some of the extras. The chunin procters for the exam where familier with it before hand. Kakashi knows it, so presumably Gai knows of it given how often they go against each other. Furthermore after the first few episodes we don't constantly see people wondering how Naruto knows some uber-kinjutsu. Usually when an outstanding or exceedingly rare technique is revealed an opponent would be amazed or shocked, however aside from Mizuki and Iruka, no one really gives it much notice. Thus it is fair to say that KB isn't as much of an uber technique as it was origonally portrayed to be.

[Moshulel]

Not necassarily. Remember he did improve while under the seal from falling in the water immediatly, to being able to sort of stand on it a little. Thus he did master it quickly, but no where near as quickly as Sakura.

Offcourse maybe the fact that he has a demon sealed in him, a seal placed on his original seal and almost 8 times the amount of chakra Sakura has doesn not have to do anything with it? The fact that he improved while suffering the effects of the five part seal proves just how fast he learns and adapts. Learning ans adapting are different things .

I said almost. And lets go through a list here. Zabuza had his water clones which got almost the same effect, albeit without some of the extras. The chunin procters for the exam where familier with it before hand. Kakashi knows it, so presumably Gai knows of it given how often they go against each other. Furthermore after the first few episodes we don't constantly see people wondering how Naruto knows some uber-kinjutsu. Usually when an outstanding or exceedingly rare technique is revealed an opponent would be amazed or shocked, however aside from Mizuki and Iruka, no one really gives it much notice. Thus it is fair to say that KB isn't as much of an uber technique as it was origonally portrayed to be.

Again: EXCUSE ME?
How can you compare the mizu bunshin with the kage bunshin?
Kage Bunshin= Exact replica of the user. Jounin level.
Mizu Bunshin= 10% of the users power. Chuunin Level.
Being familiar with it and knowing it are two different THINGS. And it's not just Iruka and Mizuki that are astounished by him knowing the tehnique, again get the facts right. Also who do we see performing this tehnique? Only people with the sharingan (they stole it) or people with acces to knowledge (Sandaime and Ebisu) there is no other known user.
Also what kind of ninjas of a certain level wouldn't catch wind of the use of those tehniques?
I find it interesting that you are trying to downsize a jounin level tehnique to explain Sakura's growth. What next? The rasengan is a lump of chakra?

[nuclear death frog]

Offcourse maybe the fact that he has a demon sealed in him, a seal placed on his original seal and almost 8 times the amount of chakra Sakura has doesn not have to do anything with it

Frankly I'd say he's got way more than eight times what she does.
Sakura was a particularly weak genin straight out of the Academy; Naruto already had chakra reserves that were *at least* late chuunin level, if not early jounin, considering how many shadow clones (Kage Bunshin) he can sustain and for how long.
I wouldn't be surprised if he had a couple hundred times as much chakra as she did.

[Shadell]

Frankly I'd say he's got way more than eight times what she does.
Sakura was a particularly weak genin straight out of the Academy; Naruto already had chakra reserves that were *at least* late chuunin level, if not early jounin, considering how many shadow clones (Kage Bunshin) he can sustain and for how long.
I wouldn't be surprised if he had a couple hundred times as much chakra as she did.

More then that I think. After all Kakashi doesn't have enough chakra to use Taiyuu Kage Bunshin. The version Naruto pulled off in the chapter 1 was probably at least 4-500, and probably about as many as Kakashi could do if he tried his hardest.
However even with his chakra all fixed, I doubt he would have gotten it on his first try. Sakura would almost definatly have mastered it immediatly considering that she was able to do the tree walking technique, almost casually on her first try. She invested no great effort to learn it. Additionaly Sasuke managed to learn the water walking technique while he was busy ripping off Lee's speed and the chidori. IE: It probably isn't as hard as learning to apply the principle in the first stage.

Kage Bunshin= Exact replica of the user. Jounin level.
Mizu Bunshin= 10% of the users power. Chuunin Level.
Being familiar with it and knowing it are two different THINGS. And it's not just Iruka and Mizuki that are astounished by him knowing the tehnique, again get the facts right. Also who do we see performing this tehnique? Only people with the sharingan (they stole it) or people with acces to knowledge (Sandaime and Ebisu) there is no other known user.
Also what kind of ninjas of a certain level wouldn't catch wind of the use of those tehniques?
I find it interesting that you are trying to downsize a jounin level tehnique to explain Sakura's growth. What next? The rasengan is a lump of chakra?

Technically the rasengan is a lump of chakra, albeit one spinning at high speeds. And I am saying that Kage Bunshin is jounin level. However as has been noted in the manga, the main reason for this is the inordinate amount of chakra needed to use the technique effectively.
To use numerical equivalents (Since we've all agreed Naruto is already starting to turn into DBZ anyway) lets say Kakashi has about 5000 chakra. Naruto would have 10000. Now lets say to use a mid level katon jutsu requires a minimum of 500 chakra. If Kakashi where to make 11 KB's he wouldn't be able to do it. However even if he made 50 Mizu Bunshins they all would have the power to use that jutsu. Naruto however has such an inordinate amount of chakra that he doesn't need to worry about not having enough per clone to use a jutsu (Not that he knows all that many). IE: from a logical perspective the fixed 1/10 of the mizu bunshin can be better then the endlessly dividing chakra of the KB for most people.
Also Kinjutsu are supposed to be sealed techniques. Notice how Orochimaru (Whose life goal it is to learn EVERY jutsu) Had no knowledge of the fourth's jutsu, yet many ninja are familier with KB. That fact alone means it is jounin level and not kinjutsu level. Additionaly the main reason it is jounin level is because of the high chakra consumption the technique needs to work.

[Nekomata-sensei]

My opinion is Kage Bunshin is there on the scroll of forbidden seals to distract idiots like Naruto who might steal the scroll from the more valuable contents later on in it. Naruto doesn't even look at the next technique, but spends all afternoon learning Kage Bunshin no jutsu until Iruka finds him. Normally someone who finds the scroll wouldn't have nearly as much chakra as him, and they might burn themselves out or even die from chakra exhaustion trying to learn it. It's not really a kinjutsu, it's a distraction, in more ways than one.

[BlackSun]

I doubt the whole scroll was written all at once. Each kinjutsu in there was probably added one at a time.
KB is known to many people because it can be used without killing the user, the Fourth's jutsu will ALWAYS kill the user. and was created by the Fourth, the only one who used it before Sarutobi used it against Orochimaru. How would Oro know anything about it?
And while Naruto is turning into DBZ, it isn't. In Naruto, more chakra doesn't mean more powerfull, or Naruto would be able to beat almost anyone from the start. A jounin can have as little chakra as your average genin fresh from the academy, and still be good enough with whatever he knows to be as deadly (or almost as deadly) as Kakashi.

[Shadell]

My opinion is Kage Bunshin is there on the scroll of forbidden seals to distract idiots like Naruto who might steal the scroll from the more valuable contents later on in it. Naruto doesn't even look at the next technique, but spends all afternoon learning Kage Bunshin no jutsu until Iruka finds him. Normally someone who finds the scroll wouldn't have nearly as much chakra as him, and they might burn themselves out or even die from chakra exhaustion trying to learn it. It's not really a kinjutsu, it's a distraction, in more ways than one.

That is actually a very good theory. Hmm... Maybe the whole scroll is basically fake and meant to distract somewhat dumb thieves. After all I sincerely doubt that Kakashi, Gai, Sarutobi, or any jounin/higher level chunin, couldn't find Naruto at all during an entire afternoon. If it had been a really serious thing Naruto's theft would probably have had a very anti-climatic end. Either that or every single character with any real power was out on a mission that day.

[Mitchell]

Hmm My theory is that the scroll works almost like a magical book or something. You have to master the first technique to get to the second and so on and so forth. The first techniques are basiclly Juunin technquies. To get to the really forbidden technqiues that are based on the first few. (I.e. First you learn Kage bushin, then learn a technique that is based on it). Then I realised that this sounds stupid.
And I'm pretty sure taht Sandamine was probably watching Naruto with his crystal Ball all afternoon. Either that or ANBU were standing around the clearing. If as the theory goes its a decoy, just some high level chuunin/Juunin techniuqes they just thought that if he could get it he could at least look at it.

[Dark Magic]

I think that KB was on the scroll because it takes so much chakra to use, younger or weaker ninja's that try to use it could harm themselves trying to use it, and so is forbidden to teach to younger kids

[crystlshake]

Id have to agree that the scroll he stole is either a fake (doesnt actually contain forbiden jutsu) or the dangerous ones are encoded or hidden on it somehow. Im leaning to the theory that the techniques on the scroll may have been forbiden (dangerous to use/learn) but more to the unexperienced than anything else. Like what was said before it could of just been a fake to trick a would be theif into thinking they got the right one. After all, something as dangerous as the Forbiden Techniques would be under a lot more security than a novice theif should be able to break thrue even on a good day. I would think that the actual scroll's location would be known by only a small handfull of people to keep it hidden from spies. Really, Naruto should be thankfull that it didnt blow up when he opened it.

[Dragon Man]

I think that KB was on the scroll because it takes so much chakra to use, younger or weaker ninja's that try to use it could harm themselves trying to use it, and so is forbidden to teach to younger kids

That makes alot of sense. I can easily see Konohamaru bugging Naruto to teach him the skill after seeing it for a second. But he probably thought they were normal bunshin and was to distracted at his failure to defeat the closet pervert that he didn't notice the Kage part of the jutsu. So it is also likely that all the jutsu on the scroll are meant to be learned only by high level Chunin or Jounin with a supervisor to make sure they don't kill themselves by draining their chakra.
Another reason the KB is on the scroll could be because we know, thanks to the latest chapter of the manga, that the clones share a connection with their creator. Now what if that connection was faulty and the creator got confused about which one was the real body? Naruto seemed to have this happen when he was trying to get the bells from Kakashi the first time, so I could see it happening to someone else.

[Shadell]

That makes alot of sense. I can easily see Konohamaru bugging Naruto to teach him the skill after seeing it for a second. But he probably thought they were normal bunshin and was to distracted at his failure to defeat the closet pervert that he didn't notice the Kage part of the jutsu. So it is also likely that all the jutsu on the scroll are meant to be learned only by high level Chunin or Jounin with a supervisor to make sure they don't kill themselves by draining their chakra.
Another reason the KB is on the scroll could be because we know, thanks to the latest chapter of the manga, that the clones share a connection with their creator. Now what if that connection was faulty and the creator got confused about which one was the real body? Naruto seemed to have this happen when he was trying to get the bells from Kakashi the first time, so I could see it happening to someone else.

But Naruto can just cancel that jutsu in the last case. Also we're starting to get pretty far off topic here, we should probably make a different thread to talk about the specifics of the scroll.

[GenocideHeart]

I always thought her super strength was a composite of both incredible chakra control AND massive amounts of chakra, explaining why most ninja's were not just crushing bulders. I didnt think that Tsuade HAD a bloodline. I know she is the grand-daughter of the First Hokage, but no actual limit.

Gai and Lee are the only ones who can do damage anywhere near Tsunade's level with their body, and both have to use teh Gates to temporarily boost their chakra by removing the limits on their system.
That basically tells us one thing: that Tsunade has an ungodly amount of chakra to pour in her body, since not only can she make craters in the ground, but she can call Boss summons (Katsuyu) and leap several stories high, which requires a good amount of chakra by itself, since otherwise it'd overtax the muscles in your legs.
One more thing. While Sakura probably has Jounin level chakra control, her chakra reserves were below average even for a genin. I really don't see hwo she could possibly make it through the Chuunin exams, even with tsunade's coaching, especially since the Exams test not only your fighting prowess, but your ability to lead - and Sakura showed an utter amount of incompetence and foolishness when it comes to 'leading'. Remember, just winning the Exams doesn't guarantee you'll be made chuunin, it was stated that you need a certain something, that something being leadership skills, which Sakura frankly lacks.
I honestly fail to see how, after all that razzmatazz about how a Chuunin needs to know how to lead, they let uberscrubby leader material like Ino and Sakura herself become Chuunin. All they'd obtain is get their team killed.
I suppose that you can give her the rank if you make her a special chuunin, as support only... but if that's the case, she has no business learning how to fight, instead she should concentrate on learning te medic trade. All special chuunin and jounin we saw so far had noncombat duties (Ibiki, Iruka himself and IIRC Hayate as well, mostly due to his poor health).
Either way, Sakura makes little to no sense.

[GenocideHeart]

By the way, you forget that Naruto has a LOT of experience running and hifding ftrom angry people who want to hurt him. Why shouldn't he be able to hide long enough to learn a technique?
Also, Kage Bunshin IS supposed to eb a kinjutsu for reasons easy to see. One, it makes a perfect replica of the user, which makes it hard to tell who the real one is. Two, it is actually solid unlike Bunshin, meaning it can be used to do something dishonest, from theft to assassination. Three, it can kill the user if they don't know what they are doing with it. And fourth, with enough chakra available, it could easily allow for a coup or hostile takeover of cities. It's basically an instant army of potentially lethal soldiers.
And fifth, in the most recent chapters: it can actually KEEP KNOWLEDGE. That alone makes it mortally dangerous as a spying jutsu.