Ranma/Star Wars X-Wing cross

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Postby Pale Wolf » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:57 pm

the other (from Children of the Jedi) was officially of of Palpatine's concubines.

Hm? She was one of his Hands? Don't remember that, but I guess I'll take your word for it.
She might have been a brilliant strategist in the pre-Yavin days (she had to have had some skill for Tarkin to look for her in the first place), but she couldn't keep up to date with developments in tactical theory while at Maw Station and as a result every idea she had was analyzed and counters found long before she returned to the front while she never learned about any new strategies developed by other people. This is the reason why every time she fought against people who could shoot back, she lost.

And ya see, that is what I'd have said if I'd read the books anytime semi-recently :)
In terms of rank, Isard would have been equal (or at worst one rank junior) to Thrawn. She may or may not have slept with the emperor (She admitted that she had loved him, but never said if he took her as a mistress), but whether or not that played a part in getting her father's job after she framed him, you can't keep a job that critical under Vader and Palpatine without being good at it and live.

... Considering the effectiveness of her schemes, 'good at it' kind of goes without saying. Problem is, she, like many Imperials, tends to overestimate her own abilities - she overestimated Krytos, she overestimated Lusankya, she got herself owned by Bel Iblis and Hal Horn in one of the short stories...
A more plausible way for Ranma to go to the Wraiths would be for him to start in the Commandos like Kell did (Ranma might even meet-and beat the crap out of-Vula Nelprin, Kell's old teacher).

... Kell's gonna burst out in tears with that kind of resume.
Some incidents with his unit being chewed up as a result of poor air support might cause Ranma to want to learn piloting so that he could handle that himself.

Hm, good idea.
Of course, that'd end up taking some patience - assuming you don't show that stuff in flashbacks and backstory if at all. He'd still need an appropriate 'problem' in his military career if he joined the original crew, although if he filled in after the Trigit mess then his own psychological uniqueness would work.
Would Ranma address Piggy as P-chan?

Maybe, but on the other hand Piggy wouldn't earn his disrespect as easily as Ryouga did.
Ranma's a fairly good actor - though he isn't as good at lying when he isn't playing a part. Face might find that useful.

Not to mention the built-in disguise.
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Postby Light02 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:35 pm

I like the idea of Ranma having encountered Vula Nelprim durring basic, though my question besides the curse would he specialize besides unarmed combat.
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Postby Pale Wolf » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:40 pm

Ranma could be a generalized combat/stealth/infiltration specialist. His speed and perception would serve him well even in a firefight, his Anything Goes (translation: thief) training and Umi Sen Ken make him freakishly good at sneaky-stuff... He'd probably be about similar to Tyria or Falynn in general sneaking around, and that's before his Umi Sen Ken training.
And bluntly put, I don't see him as having anything better than par technical skills - no way he'd become a Demolition Boy unless he learned Bakusai Tenketsu.
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Postby Light02 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:47 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:And bluntly put, I don't see him as having anything better than par technical skills - no way he'd become a Demolition Boy unless he learned Bakusai Tenketsu.

I agree with that, besides Kell is better suited for that, though Ranma maybe be able to teach Tyria some new stuff espically if she sees him use the Phantom Cloth tech.
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Postby Pale Wolf » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:49 pm

I agree with that, besides Kell is better suited for that,

Kell is the only Demolition Boy Sir. There can be no other :)
though Ranma maybe be able to teach Tyria some new stuff espically if she sees him use the Phantom Cloth tech.

Let's not have a too uber Ranma, eh? Why not say Tyria can teach him a bit about mundane stealth techniques? After all, she's got about as much experience there as he does in martial arts...
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<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

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Postby Light02 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:53 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:
I agree with that, besides Kell is better suited for that,

Kell is the only Demolition Boy Sir. There can be no other :)
though Ranma maybe be able to teach Tyria some new stuff espically if she sees him use the Phantom Cloth tech.

Let's not have a too uber Ranma, eh? Why not say Tyria can teach him a bit about mundane stealth techniques? After all, she's got about as much experience there as he does in martial arts...

understandable I try not to make my Ranma's too powerful I was thing along lines Tyria teaching him basic sealth tricks like the Ranger group she was in but Ranma would try to tech some people his style, I can see Shalla or Kell wanting lessions from him, I mean come on if he can beat Vulla easily that's bound to put those two intrested to see what he knows.
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Postby bissek » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:56 pm

I concur. Ranma would be an excellent scout. Between normal stealth training and Umisenken, he'd be able to get almost anywhere (How does the Umisenken work? If it bends visible light he'd be visible under IR, and if it's a Shadow-like convincing people they don't see him, it wouldn't protect him against cameras). With all the experience he has being attacked by crazy people, he would have a natural eye for locating nearby threats.
The problem would be Tyria. She only really got into the Wraiths because of her scouting abilities, and she knows it. Until she managed to get partial control of her Jedi skills in 'Solo Command', she didn't have a very strong sense of self-worth, having failed Jedi training, technically failed pilot training and being the worst of the Wraiths in space combat. Having Ranma show up and casually be able to upstage her in her one strength would be very bad for her. You'd need to have her be able to top Ranma in something, or she might not be able to function.
I'm not sure Ranma would take to blasters well. All martial arts weapons take years of training to master. You can achieve basic competency with a gun in a week (People do it in Boy Scout camp every summer). A skill acquired too easily is one Ranma wouldn't really respect. Long range sniping is a more difficult skill, but Ranma wouldn't really respect a technique where the other person can't even try to defend himself.
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Postby Light02 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:01 pm

bissek wrote:I concur. Ranma would be an excellent scout. Between normal stealth training and Umisenken, he'd be able to get almost anywhere (How does the Umisenken work? If it bends visible light he'd be visible under IR, and if it's a Shadow-like convincing people they don't see him, it wouldn't protect him against cameras). With all the experience he has being attacked by crazy people, he would have a natural eye for locating nearby threats.
The problem would be Tyria. She only really got into the Wraiths because of her scouting abilities, and she knows it. Until she managed to get partial control of her Jedi skills in 'Solo Command', she didn't have a very strong sense of self-worth, having failed Jedi training, technically failed pilot training and being the worst of the Wraiths in space combat. Having Ranma show up and casually be able to upstage her in her one strength would be very bad for her. You'd need to have her be able to top Ranma in something, or she might not be able to function.
I'm not sure Ranma would take to blasters well. All martial arts weapons take years of training to master. You can achieve basic competency with a gun in a week (People do it in Boy Scout camp every summer). A skill acquired too easily is one Ranma wouldn't really respect. Long range sniping is a more difficult skill, but Ranma wouldn't really respect a technique where the other person can't even try to defend himself.

good points on those bits of info, I was thinking of his curse as the main reason why he was considered a screw up, most comanders, at least some in Star Fighter Comand, would probably view that curse a freakish ability, sure he'll be a tracker but his main bread and butter will be infulitration (ie the curse to get in and out).
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Postby Eris » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:09 pm

Pale Wolf wrote:And ya see, that is what I'd have said if I'd read the books anytime semi-recently :)

*snerks* Better than me--I haven't read more than a double handful of the SW novels at all let alone recently--mostly I nick my info from other people's research. Mostly I'm just really a die-hard fan of the Empire, and felt obliged to jump into its defence. Thinking of which...
bissek wrote:There are a total of two KNOWN Emperor's Hands.

Actually we're up to four, still all women. The two you mentioned plus Shira Brie (from the marvel comics, plus a mention in one of the Lucasfilms sponsored mags) and Arden Lyn (from one of the video games).
Actually, you could argue against Lyn being acceptable given the source, but if you do accept it she is confirmed as being a Hand.
Pale Wolf wrote:Hm? Strange, I've never heard of her. Maybe I got out of SW before she was written of.

She's terribly obscure, mentioned in one of the RPG supplements. I think it makes sense though--having one female admiral is a good sign that you have more as well. It'd be silly for a military to make exceptions to policy by letting only one of a certain class of people into given positions.
Pale Wolf wrote:Well, I remember our friendly Interdictor captain, but I don't seem to recall any female SD captains from those novels.

In The Bacta War the ISD II Virulence is captained by Lakwii Vaarscha, who is introduced as being a woman. That's the only one that I can think of readily, but so long as we know they can acheive the rank, I find it plausible that more than one did. Moreover the quote that mentions her being female runs: "[she] was one of the many promoted to officer status in the Imperial Navy." (Unfortunately I don't have the page numbers for it--again I nicked it from a friend of mine who is infinitely more patient than I in researching these things.)
*coughs* I think I'll be quiet now. I have a serious love-hate relationship with Star Wars in any case, and the Empire fangirl-cum-feminist in me feels satiated.
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Postby Pale Wolf » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:39 pm

bissek wrote:Long range sniping is a more difficult skill, but Ranma wouldn't really respect a technique where the other person can't even try to defend himself.

Sigh... Donos gets no love.
Eris wrote:In The Bacta War the ISD II Virulence is captained by Lakwii Vaarscha, who is introduced as being a woman.

Doh.
She got her ass kicked so easily I forgot about her :oops:
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Postby bissek » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:56 pm

Eris, the rest of that quote ran "after the death of the Emperor". Bigotry from on high has a great affect on the rank structure, as shown by Thrawn being the only non-human to achieve flag rank under Palpatine. Women and non-humans in the Imperial Navy were stuck at junior ranks (And since Lucas declared that the Republic as a whole didn't have a military until the clone wars-which is inherently ludicrous- there were no women in senior officer's uniforms to carry over) until Endor. After that, the empire fell under the control Isard and then Thrawn, and they didn't care about an officer's gender or origins so long as they were loyal and competent. The X-wing series starts three to four years after Endor, which meant that women stuck at senior lieutenant would have the time and opportunity to reach Captain or Commander (Commander outranks captain in the SW Navies) if they were good enough to earn it.
As I understand it, the Ranmaverse states that anyone can learn to use ki if they try hard enough ('Hard enough' being a relative term. What Ranma considers tough training others would consider attempted homicide or suicide. It could take years to reach a level where you can do anything useful with it.), while Jedi abilities are a have or have-not thing. How would this contradiction affect the relation between Ranma and the force-talented pilots (Corran Horn, Tyria Sarkin, Luke Skywalker)? If you want to have Ranma tested for Jedi skills, the tests shown in the Jedi Academy trilogy are much more intelligent than the ones in the movies. One was a device that if you touch an attached sensor pad to the person would read their aura (Jedis have more active auras than normal people), and the other was a mental manipulation similar to a knee-jerk test. Psychically touching one mental node in every person would cause a Jedi to instinctively push out telekinetically.
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Postby Pale Wolf » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:11 pm

One was a device that if you touch an attached sensor pad to the person would read their aura (Jedis have more active auras than normal people), and the other was a mental manipulation similar to a knee-jerk test. Psychically touching one mental node in every person would cause a Jedi to instinctively push out telekinetically.

Of course, both of those were pretty much freak discoveries. Exhibit A being because Wedge was moonlighting in domestic engineering (but wasn't it a pair of paddles that scanned the candidate between them?), and Exhibit B thanks to Luke's never having learned the lesson 'if you see something shiny in someone's brain, don't poke it at random'.
There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper application of immense levels of firepower.

- Finally promoted to Spammaster Indeterminate Rank as of June 18, by Stratagemini

<Stratagemini> My Titanium Anus Armour will repel all challengers!

Would you believe this is one of the more tame bits of dirt I've got for him?
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Postby Eris » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:50 pm

bissek wrote:Eris, the rest of that quote ran "after the death of the Emperor".

Mmm? It did? I was not aware. Even so, I think my point remains. The fundamental problem is that in the navies we're familiar with in real life, it takes 22-25 years service to make captain, if you make it at all. Making each grade change often takes five years or more at the senior levels of command. There must have been a significant number of female officers floating around for there to be any captains or admirals at all by the time of the X-wing books. Trained and experienced officers don't appear ex nihilo, especially at the senior grades. It's downright moronic to promote someone swiftly, since it puts green officers at the controls of line warships. (Although this might explain why some of the poor performance in the novels...)
Bigotry from on high has a great affect on the rank structure, as shown by Thrawn being the only non-human to achieve flag rank under Palpatine.

We were told that--not shown it. We were also told Daala was the only female flag officer, but we've got a second example available. (Source is the Dark Empire Sourcebook incidentally.) I'll agree on the anti-alien prejiduce however, although I'll point out that Palpatine had fairly little to do with this. He was remarkably unbigoted in that sense (his close advisors for years were aliens), he just took advantage of the underlying human racism to further his own agenda. High Human Culture was by no means his invention--he was more of a believer in a ruling elite of force sensetives. The Dark Side was his big prejudice, and that seems to be species-blind.
Except for rebel propaganda, though, there's not much to substantiate the sexism charges. All the novels were from a rebel perspective after all, and we've seen despite that a fair number of women in the Imperial military. I could turn the situation around and point out that within the movies we saw all of two rebel women (Mon Mothma and Leia--neither of which hold actual military rank to my knowledge) amongst a large number of men, yet not many will accuse them of sexism.
On a side note, can you point out where Navy Commander was said to outrank Navy Captain? I know Starfighter Commander outranks Starfighter Captain, but WEG states that Navy Captain still outranks Navy Commander, and I was not aware there was a contradiction to this.
Pale Wolf wrote:She got her ass kicked so easily I forgot about her

Yeah... the only Imperials that seem to ever get portrayed in a competent light are generally Zahn's characters or traitors. Therein lies a great deal of why I gave up on the EU long ago. Well, that and most everyone involved seems to be painfully stupid. The authors (KJA in particular) seem to be set on character assassinating everyone who was remotely interesting.
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Postby bissek » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:18 am

The rank difference was shown in the Bacta War, when Isard demoted Convarion from Commander to Captain.
A sizeable part of the Imperial Non-huMan bigotry might also be that when Palpatine was choosing his inner circle, he tended to pick human supremacists. He might have been trying to get rebels focusing on a race issue rather than "the emperor wants to make everyone outside his inner circle a virtual slave".
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Re: Emperor's Hand

Postby Sauron of Mordor » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:47 am

To those interested, make it at least a dozen known Hands, some of them being males.
Hopefully, this Wookiepedia entry will clarify some of the doubts you might have. I am fairly sure that right now this wiki is the best online resource regarding SW information.
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