Out of Time, chapter 3

[Trimatter]

Howdy!
Here is a beta of the next chapter of "Out of Time". Please let me know what you think.
Thanks in advance.
http://home.austin.rr.com/trimatter/Roughs/OoT_PB1.html

[Light02]

damn the angst is getting thicker but still good Tri-Ojisan.

[Kadunta]

Angst is good. Angst is tasty. Angst is the spice what makes the few moments of joy and bliss (there will be some of them coming up later on, right?) feel ever sweeter.
Nice read. Sorry I don't know what else to say.

[ranger5]

I agree, awfully angsty ... but given the situation much more reasonable that Ranma suddenly thinking that everything is okay and life is all good with nothing bad to worry about.
Good chapter. I do hope it lightens up soon though (g). Ranma's been through so much.

[Climhazard]

That may be strange and freaky, but i can understand Genma... And even agree with him on some level...

[Alathon]

Enjoyed reading it in general, but one thing I don't understand.. wouldn't Akane and Kasumi have married into their husbands families, and hence wouldn't their children be members of those families and not Tendos?

[nuclear death frog]

I'm not going to point out spelling or grammar mistakes because there are other potential proofreaders here who seem to have a good time doing that.
That doesn't mean there aren't things for me to point out.

"Ahh... your Moko Takabisha," commented Genma thoughtfully. "Using your confidence to power your ki. That was always your best technique."

It never was, and Genma should know this. Actually, Ranma hardly ever used that move, because its utility is rather limited -- in fact, in two of Ranma's biggest victories, it would have been virtually useless. And in one other, it would have been counterproductive.
Having Genma call it that smacks of Idiot Plot Device.

Biting her lip and mind racing, Akane tried to recall all she could about the technique. "Auntie, I don't want to alarm you, but..." then her voice trailed off for only a second before continuing, "from what I remember, the person has to be very depressed - almost borderline suicidal."

Akane's memory sure has dropped into the toilet, especially for someone who's not even forty years old. This also smacks of Idiot Plot Device.

"My colleagues - that is, Drs. Hiyowai and Tofu

Again.
Tofu is his first name, NOT his family name.

"What have you done to instill that sense of honor in your children?" Soun asked as sharp as a knife. "You know what I'm talking about, don't act so ignorant. I'm talking about Myu, or are you forgetting the abortion she had to have last year? She was thirteen years old at the time and cares more about the sins of the flesh than her own personal honor."

OUCH. Holy shit was this ever callous. Especially since it's none of his business.. Frankly, Kasumi would have been well within her rights never to speak to her father again after a comment like that.
The real backbreaker, though, is still coming up.

The doctor pursed his lips in thought. After a moment's silence he looked at Nodoka with his head cocked to one side. "The odds of Ranma developing a strict heterosexual lifestyle as a male are about the same as being hit by a meteor and struck by lightning at the same time."

The entire conversation up to this reeks so strongly of Idiot Plot Device that it practically bowled me over even though I saw it coming virtually from the start. This also ranks as a first-class piece of Ham-Fisted Melodrama, to a degree that is hard to believe.
Especially since this "doctor" hardly even knows Ranma; he's operating on at best second-hand information, some of it flawed.
Frankly, it was handled so poorly that I really don't think I can continue reading this. Sorry.

[DCG]

I just can't get into this fic.
This is a boring emo Ranma, that I just don't understand.
I don't see ranma reacting like that in any way.
Every one else is screwed up to, but that could easly be part of the fic if Ranma was on the ball.
Only one worth reading about right now is Nodoka.

[Trimatter]

Howdy!
I few comments on the comments I have so far:
Light02 wrote:

damn the angst is getting thicker but still good Tri-Ojisan.

Kadunta wrote:

Angst is good. Angst is tasty. Angst is the spice what makes the few moments of joy and bliss (there will be some of them coming up later on, right?) feel ever sweeter.

ranger5 wrote:

I agree, awfully angsty ... but given the situation much more reasonable that Ranma suddenly thinking that everything is okay and life is all good with nothing bad to worry about.
Good chapter. I do hope it lightens up soon though (g). Ranma's been through so much.

Thanks. This is a low spot in Ranma's life and this is probably as dark as the story will get, I'll be lightening up from here on out.
Climhazard wrote:

That may be strange and freaky, but i can understand Genma... And even agree with him on some level...

I did want to flesh out Genma in this and wanted to show more what motivated him. I wanted to avoid the "Genma is an idiot" thingie. I'm going to shoot for semi-sympathic for Genma.
Alathon wrote:

Enjoyed reading it in general, but one thing I don't understand.. wouldn't Akane and Kasumi have married into their husbands families, and hence wouldn't their children be members of those families and not Tendos?

I did bring that up in the chapter and Genma dismissed that fact as "Anything Goes is a duty that transcends family names" or such.
nuclear death frog wrote:

It never was, and Genma should know this. Actually, Ranma hardly ever used that move, because its utility is rather limited -- in fact, in two of Ranma's biggest victories, it would have been virtually useless. And in one other, it would have been counterproductive.
Having Genma call it that smacks of Idiot Plot Device.

Okay, can you narrow this down for me? I know Ranma had developed the move to counter Ryoga's Shi Shi Hokodan and he had used it I think once after that. I chose that particular one because it is emotion driven and uses contrasting emotions that the Shi Shi Hokodan uses. Can you suggest a tweak?
What the hell is "Idiot Plot Device" mean? I couldn't find any reference on Wikipedia or any clear definitions in the short amount of time I had to look for one. I couldn't find any reference to it in the index or glossary of "Simon and Schuster handbook for Writers" either or any of the few 'writing' web sites that I have bookmarked. Without a definition, it is meaningless.

Akane's memory sure has dropped into the toilet, especially for someone who's not even forty years old. This also smacks of Idiot Plot Device.

No, Akane's memory hasn't "dropped into the toilet", but it has been 22 years. I'm 43 years old and I don't recall things that I did when I was 21 years old precisely and neither does anyone else - or Akane. It is easy to think that memory is a solid thing, but it is very fluid. Expecting Akane to remember anything that happened 22 years ago with clarity would be unreasonable.

Tofu is his first name, NOT his family name.

Right, it's Ono. Got used to using Dr. Tofu from reading the manga and other sources. Should I tweak this or let it stand?

OUCH. Holy shit was this ever callous. Especially since it's none of his business.. Frankly, Kasumi would have been well within her rights never to speak to her father again after a comment like that.

Yes, they are manipulative bastards, aren't they? Genma will be even more so.

The entire conversation up to this reeks so strongly of Idiot Plot Device that it practically bowled me over even though I saw it coming virtually from the start. This also ranks as a first-class piece of Ham-Fisted Melodrama, to a degree that is hard to believe.

There's that term again - that doesn't mean anything as far as I can find. Ham-fisted Melodrama? How? And more importantly what to you suggest I do to fix it? While you flow your comments freely, nuclear death frog, you offer nothing to help me to improve this.

Especially since this "doctor" hardly even knows Ranma; he's operating on at best second-hand information, some of it flawed.

It was mentioned that Ranma had been back for about two months. Seeing a doctor like this (especially when first starting out) is usually a two or three times a week affair (if not more, if the doctor thinks it is necessary) which means that the doctor has had approximately twelve to eighteen (if not more) sessions with Ranma - more than enough to formulate a professional opinion. Should I detail that fact somewhere in the chapter or let it go?

Frankly, it was handled so poorly that I really don't think I can continue reading this. Sorry.

That is your prerogative, but let me point out that the reason that I posted this here instead of FFnet or in my 'publicly accessible areas' of my web site is to get critical reviews of this. This means that I'm looking for reviews that point out the weaknesses of the chapter, why the area is weak, and offer directions or solutions to correct the flaws.
You pointed out what you felt were weak areas of the chapter, but didn't really detail why you thought it was weak beyond the term "Idiot Plot Device" (which now I can't find a clear definition of outside of vague samples in movies) or some such, and instead of offering something constructive to aid me in improving this - you offered nothing.
Big help that was - and I expected better from you especially after the assistance you have given me in the past. In the future, please concentrate on helping me out by following the above steps, not doing something like this - this was basically worthless.
DCG wrote:

This is a boring emo Ranma, that I just don't understand.
I don't see ranma reacting like that in any way.

Hmmm... Most my other pre-readers (the ones that read this before I posted it here) thought that Ranma reacting emotional was understandable given the circumstances that he has found himself in. If you think it was overdone or not well done, could you give me any thoughts or suggestions on tweaking it?
I'm trying to avoid the "Ranma wakes up one morning and is fine with everything and goes on with his life like nothing ever happened" syndrome that I see too much of. Most of my other pre-readers thought that this was a good approach and that thought I pulled off well and that Ranma was behaving in a believable way given what has happened.
If you disagree, I can accept that - but how do you think Ranma should be acting? I'm open to suggestions.

Every one else is screwed up to, but that could easly be part of the fic if Ranma was on the ball.

Having screwed up characters is part of the fun... Hmmm... are you also saying that there wasn't enough interaction with Ranma and these characters? Could you give me examples of what I overlooked and give me some suggestions?

Only one worth reading about right now is Nodoka.

Are you saying I didn't develop anyone else's character enough to make them interesting or just that Nodoka's character was the one that stood out the most?
-----
To those who read this and thought it was fine and dropped me a line to tell me so: Thank you, I do appreciate it.
To those of you that didn't like this chapter or found problems with it, I need to hear from you specifically - but only if you have something helpful to offer. As I stated above, I posted this here to get critical reviews of this. This means that I'm looking for reviews that point out the weaknesses of the chapter, why the area is weak, and offer directions or solutions to correct the weaknesses.
One of the reasons I sat on this so long was because of several degrees of uncertainty I had with this chapter. I posted it here hoping to get additional help and input. This was a horribly complex chapter and I need feedback with more "meat" on it. If something is not working, POINT it out. Then TELL me WHY it isn't working and then OFFER SUGGESTIONS to HELP me make it BETTER. If something is not working and you are uncertain as to what, point it out anyway and say you're not sure. I can deal with that as well.
Also please keep insult or insult-like terms to yourself, they offer nothing and I'm too old to put up with that kind of crap. If something is not working, say "This isn't working" and go on from there. Using undefined and insulting-like terms will just undermine anything constructive that may be said afterward.
As far as how much I willing to go with this chapter, I'm not above a rewrite - if I think it is warranted. However, I think most of the major pieces are in place and it is a matter of refinement. If you think otherwise, then say so constructively.
If your comments are long and drawn out or you don't feel comfortable posting any feedback here, then email me. All I ask that you keep it polite and constructive. My email address is:
Trimatter1@austin.rr.com
To everyone who took the time, thanks.
- Trimatter

[nav]

Liked the chapter, especiall Ranma's reaction to Akane and the new generation.
The only problem I have is with his reaction to some of the technology.
When Ranma was introduced in 1987 Toyko already had a cellular network and it had only grown by the two years he lived at the Tendo's before his unexpected 20-year sleep. Also, personal computers, albeit clunky and slow, were being used at that time.
I would see him being familar with the concept but suprised at the smallness and useage of the items and how they have become so widespread.
Other things such as mp3 player and of course references to arm slaves would totally leave him in the dark.

[nuclear death frog]

Okay, can you narrow this down for me? I know Ranma had developed the move to counter Ryoga's Shi Shi Hokodan and he had used it I think once after that. I chose that particular one because it is emotion driven and uses contrasting emotions that the Shi Shi Hokodan uses. Can you suggest a tweak?

Yes, I can suggest a tweak actually.
---
"Ah, the Moko Takabisha," Genma said. "A clever reinvention, it was -- refining a technique you couldn't do easily into one that you could."
---
Or something like that.
As for the victories I was referring to, if you're interested, they were all from only the manga. The two fights where the Moko Takabisha would have been virtually useless were Herb and Saffron; and the one where it would have been counterproductive was Ryuu Kumon.
Next. "Idiot Plot Device". That's actually a combination of "Idiot Plot" and "Plot Device"
Idiot Plot -- a plot twist that only works because those involved are idiots.
Plot Device -- a device or hook that is thrown in solely to build or advance the plot. Normally, this wouldn't be a bad thing, except when they're transparent and poorly weaved in.
I suppose in hindsight I might have written "idiotic plot device". Still, Genma's calling the Moko Takabisha Ranma's best move seemed really ridiculous since Ranma hardly ever used it.
Next.

No, Akane's memory hasn't "dropped into the toilet", but it has been 22 years. I'm 43 years old and I don't recall things that I did when I was 21 years old precisely and neither does anyone else - or Akane. It is easy to think that memory is a solid thing, but it is very fluid. Expecting Akane to remember anything that happened 22 years ago with clarity would be unreasonable.

Dude, I'm 26 and I have perfectly clear memories of when I was no older than nine. That's seventeen years; not quite twenty-two but pretty close. And that's a bigger feat, actually, since Akane is struggling to remember her teenage years and I'm recalling childhood
But beyond myself, I know plenty of people who can easily recall things that happened over forty years ago. For some, over fifty years ago.
This, though, isn't my real point on this particular thing I pointed out, and I realize in hindsight that I didn't phrase it well. My apologies.
The real issue is that Akane had a fair bit of exposure to Ryouga in however long Ranma 1/2 took place in and considered him a friend. She KNEW HIM PERSONALLY and would have known that he was never suicidal, and he was able to use that technique well enough. In fact, one of the biggest SSH's Akane ever saw Ryouga use (possibly the second-biggest) would have been the one where he ASKED her to tell him that she hated him; which is very contrived, to say the least. And she knew it, because, er...she didn't hate him. She didn't love him (romantically, at least) but she did consider him a friend.
Next.

Should I tweak this or let it stand?

Tweak. It.
It would be DISRESPECTFUL for this doctor to continually refer to Doc Tofu (I'm writing it that way to make a point) as Tofu when referring, in a professional situation, to other doctors by their family names. Doc Tofu (again, to make a point) almost certainly only allows the Tendou girls to call him "Dr. Tofu" because he knew them when they were children and wanted them to be at ease. The odds that he allowed everyone to call him that are vanishingly slim, and the odds that everyone took him up on it are even slimmer. We just don't see it because it isn't relevant.
Next.

There's that term again - that doesn't mean anything as far as I can find. Ham-fisted Melodrama? How? And more importantly what to you suggest I do to fix it? While you flow your comments freely, nuclear death frog, you offer nothing to help me to improve this.

Ooh, burn. I suppose I deserved some of that, or even a lot of it. But when I wrote that review, I was irritated because I thought a story I have liked to this point was going very downhill very fast.
As to the thrust of my comments, i.e. the "Ham-Fisted Melodrama" I meant the psychiatrist's statement of how slim the odds were that Ranma would be exclusively a heterosexual male. When I read his summation, I thought "Drama Queen, much?" It seemed to be a grand overstatement from someone who was behaving very unprofessionally.
I would suggest tweaking it to say, simply, that the doctor believes the odds are very slim, and completely eliminating him asking Nodoka how slim he believes the odds are. It just comes off as overacting, and it doesn't read professionally at all.
Worse, though, and I realized this after the fact of my review, is that Doc Tofu is agreeing with it despite a number of things. One, Doc Tofu isn't a psychiatrist; in fact, I'm rather doubtful that he's even an M.D. -- he's too young. Two, and much more importantly, Doc Tofu KNEW RANMA before this tragedy occurred, and had seen him during the Moxibustion-and-HSH storyline, which was one of Ranma's lowest points. That was Doc Tofu's last appearance in the manga, actually, is in that arc. Doc Tofu would have (or at least should have) known that Ranma was behaving very atypically and this was simply NOT the time to be trying to form very sweeping judgments about him. Those sorts of judgments are better formed when people are behaving and emoting AS NORMAL.
And yes, you definitely need to make it more clear that the doctor has been having regular sessions with Ranma, because as-is, the conversation comes out of the blue and it just feels tremendously off.

[Sunshine Temple]

It was mentioned that Ranma had been back for about two months. Seeing a doctor like this (especially when first starting out) is usually a two or three times a week affair (if not more, if the doctor thinks it is necessary) which means that the doctor has had approximately twelve to eighteen (if not more) sessions with Ranma - more than enough to formulate a professional opinion. Should I detail that fact somewhere in the chapter or let it go?

Here's one problem Tri. How many times have you shown Ranma with this doctor on screen?
Sure you say that Ranma's been visiting that much in the fic, but you don't have very many sessions shown. Something which makes it verymuch telling and not showing.

Having screwed up characters is part of the fun... Hmmm... are you also saying that there wasn't enough interaction with Ranma and these characters?

If DCG doesn't mind me jumping in. How many times has Ranma talked with Akane onscreen? Kasumi? Or anyone other than Nodoka or Genma?
Now that I think about it, there isn't too much interaction with anyone on Ranma's side.

Are you saying I didn't develop anyone else's character enough to make them interesting or just that Nodoka's character was the one that stood out the most?

Again jumping in, DGC has mentioned this ot me and yes it's both. THe others didn't seem developed more than "Okay now I'm 20 years older with kids and a husband." Also Nodoka is the only person (other than Genma)le to be shown regularly talking to Ranma.
So of course she's stands out the most.
Personally, I feel that Nodoka is the best part of this story.
I think there needs to be more people interacting with Ranma. It feels that Genma interacts with the most people.
Also showing as few Ranma and her doctor sessions really hurt things. Adding in a few more scenes showing why the doctor comes to these conclusions and just simple dialog with Ranma, would really strengthen things.
I maintained that Ranma wass far too passive in this story. That feeling is likely increased by just how little screen time she actually gets.
I mean there are more scenes that have Akane talking about Ranma than talking with Ranma.

[MacShimi]

This is probably going to sound absurd, but it is true and I have some supporting arguments for it. In this fiction, much though I dislike him, of Ranma’s parents, the one I am more sympathetic with is Genma. Ranma spent most of his formative years in a prolonged training bout that was hellish in its intensity. At its conclusion he was able to spend a very dramatic and enjoyable year with the Tendo clan in Nerima.
Ranma prides himself on being a man amongst men and yet while he has always been willing to use his curse to his advantage, he does continue to regard it as a curse. I don’t think that this is because of Ranma’s overwhelming machismo. While in the early period Ranma believes that girls are weak he soon learns that amazons, and indeed many other women are a deadly menace and that he must respect them. As the martial arts are his primary language and means of understanding the world I feel sure that this has also helped him to re-evaluate what he has been brought up to believe by Genma.
In a way it is bitterly ironic. Genma raised his son to be the best martial artist of his generation, and a man amongst men. He created just that. Yet in creating such a person he created in his son a person who would never respect him. Ranma learnt the Martial Arts and with them the ethical code, the idea that it is a martial artist’s duty to protect the weak. Yes, Genma says it; Ranma believes it and acts accordingly. Ranma respects Genma’s martial abilities yet in all other ways Genma is a failure because of his obsessive focus on the martial arts.
Ranma, who knows all too well that to develop martial arts one must master other skills has developed techniques that his father would never have used. For Ranma there shouldn’t be a problem with learning things, just in trying to work out how he’s going to use it to inform his martial arts. Ranma has always been a martial artist first before anything else, which is why he was so devastated when weakened to the point where he was unable to maintain his practice.
I am sure that Ranma would be quite disorientated by jumping forward 20 years in Rip van Winkel fashion. Yet I am equally sure that his practice of martial arts would be a steady rock of certainty in this strange and often frightening new world. To suggest even momentarily that Ranma would seriously consider giving up the martial arts is to my mind ludicrous. Yet it seems that while wanting the best for him Nodoka Saotome is trying to turn her son into a ‘normal’ person.
Yes, I recognise that she has accepted the reality of his aquatransexualism, I am not convinced however that she has accepted that Ranma actually likes the Martial Arts. Ranma is in a fragile state of mind in this stage of the story. Were Nodoka to take advantage of that and ask that he stop practicing martial arts (or limit his practice of them) and instead to focus on fitting in then the hard work and sacrifices that both Ranma and Genma made on their 10 year trip are being thrown away.
I have seen the effects of people who are misguided in their desire to do the best for someone they don’t really understand. I think that Nodoka doesn’t really understand Ranma, and to be perfectly blunt I don’t think she can understand him; she’s just not a martial artist of his calibre. As his mother she’s well suited to understanding his personality and to nurturing him and to provide emotional support. But she hasn’t been through the ordeal of training to a master’s level as Ranma has.
So what’s my point? I don’t think you’re planning to have Ranma give up the martial arts. But I do see all too much authorial sympathy being spent on someone who was all-too-willing to execute her son over a childhood pact to become a man amongst men. Nodoka’s life has changed her as she has learnt from her own mistakes. What she hasn’t learnt is that her son too has learnt, and from his father’s mistakes as well as his own. What Ranma needs is a place to be himself, not obligations and expectations from both parents.
Wouldn’t it be nice to see that sort of story in Ranma rather than yet another story where Ranma is the hapless (or knowing) dupe of people who manipulate his honour, his desire to do the right thing, and his urge to protect people to their advantage? I sure think so. Of course, this is purely my own opinion, and you may well have written these sections with deliberate craft rather than unconscious bias, (all authors have bias, yes, me too). Hopefully some of these ideas are interesting enough to raise discussion, and perhaps to challenge you or even, if I’m really lucky to inspire you. At any rate, keep up the good work.
MacShimi

[Anime_Freak317]

I think that this is a great chapter. I have a couple of suggetions though.
1.) While Kasumi might have been stunned by Soun's appaling statement towards his granddaughter, have her stand up and smack him one. If for nothing other than that. It was way out of line.
2.) Since none of Soun's daughters are of the Tendo Clan anymore (at least I don't remember anywhere that you mentioned clan names), that would make them members of the other familys'/clans'. Thus, no say in the grandchildren's futures.
3.) While Genma is suffering from Post-tramatic-stress from his childhood, I think he's going WAAAAYYYYY too far in his asumptions of Ranma. Maybe Ranma should throw a punch and break an arm or something. But then that would build on his/her concience (sp?). Maybe another thing for Ranma to deal with too here?
I look forward to your final posting of this chapter.

[WG_Writer]

Sorry for not responding sooner, i have been quite busy.
Over all it looks good, but I do have a suggestion, when Akane's Husband mentions its cold, have Akane notice a small patch of frost and have her realize Ranma was there. Ranma would be really emo right then so the Soul of Ice would have to be used more then normal.
There is also the question on Ranma using the Umi... its sealed, so this might mean Ranma's promise to his father over the Shi Shi Hokodan might not be truthful.