The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby frice2000 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:15 pm

[As far as I can see the problem was on "threat proportionality"
[Where despite their intentions, those punks lacked the capability.
[I agree that Ranma has long crossed the Rubicon with regards to eating and torture.

That's still a problem for me and I still don't feel that's been properly weighed. Is Ranma going to find it fun to just go off and kill non-innocents that are threatening others and eating them? Is she able to control that impulse? Would not the company worry about her controlling that impulse? Would not she herself? Yes, she justifies it later saying that she's a monster and that's fine but how much will she be able to reign herself in? She treated three weak punks like they were threatening to kill her entire family and then wipes it away too cleanly that she just did that. She should be pissed at her lack of control considering ALL the principles she was raised on under her father when she was human and male. Where is that ethical value and mindset gone? Partially it was subsumed with each time she was forced into less and less ethical choices that the male her could not have made but really have we reached the point in this story that Ranma is that cut off from human feeling? I don't have a problem with her killing and eating threats to her and her children as well as her friends but still those she killed in this scene were not...And it just feels so disproportional.

You mention she's going to move into a succubus hunting mentality and that's NOT what you established to this point she was going to do. Yes, she accepted a succubus thought process as a mother but she still treated humans with respect and as equals. That cannot be her attitude if you have her start to casually hunt and kill people. Draining with little adverse side affects through sexual activity is fine, but if you make her a casual killer...no it's just not fine, and even Eve was not that since all the torture and pain she put others through had a purpose for a higher organization. I keep going back in my mind throughout this to the interlude with Sailor Sun...How would that Ranma feel about these developments to Ranma? Would she feel that comfortable around her? The answer is seemingly no, she'd increasingly see her as a monster and fail to see the connection that they both had that you established in that interlude. And that's the point I'm concerned about since that was the means through which a reader could still connect to a character that was growing more and more monstrous. You see the problem? I don't mean by any of that that I don't like the character anymore, but it becomes increasingly hard to see the good in her with these actions. She needs more good moments to balance out these black bits. And it has to relate to more then just her family and friends, because really it was in her character not too long ago to care about the world at large, and that's just seemingly all gone now and that is too sudden.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Sunshine Temple » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:08 pm

"I don't have a problem with her killing and eating threats to her and her children as well as her friends but still those she killed in this scene were not...And it just feels so disproportional."

[Which was exactly why I wrote: "[As far as I can see the problem was on "threat proportionality" "

[I'm sorry if that wasn't clear but when I said this: "[The Interlude has shown that Ranma is also getting more into another type of succubus hunting."
[I was strictly talking about Sunshine Vestal and Charles Finley.
[So basically, just like this bit you say here:

"Draining with little adverse side affects through sexual activity is fine, but if you make her a casual killer...no it's just not fine"

[The draining with little side effects is the new hunting for Ranma.
[The other kind of hunting isn't -well- new for her.

[As for the killing part of succubus hunting, Ranma's well surpassed par for her species in skill.
[I didn't mean for "succubus hunting" to mean causal killing or sadism.
[One of the main themes of this story is that these demons aren't Always-Chaotic-Evil.

[If she had been attacked by a trio of young succubae (almost as powerless against her) she would have killed and eaten them too. She has done exactly that. Is that a more or less moral action?

[Consider how Alexia's brood were turned against their will, brainwashed, and then sent as cannon fodder against Ranma when they were practically newborns.
[See the raw fear Cecilia had when Ranma and JTF2 burst into her house.

[That said, worrying about Ranma becoming too casual and cold about killing is a quite valid concern.

[But I think Nadrek's point was that Ranma has been traveling down this dark path for a long while.

[And if it takes a few human rapists to crystallize it, then I'm okay with that.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby frice2000 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:54 pm

[One of the main themes of this story is that these demons aren't Always-Chaotic-Evil.

[If she had been attacked by a trio of young succubae (almost as powerless against her) she would have killed and eaten them too. She has done exactly that. Is that a more or less moral action?

No that's not a more or less moral action however by their very nature the succubae in this example are a larger threat to people she cares about at large. And no even in that example she wouldn't have killed and eaten them because she would've wondered who sent them against her and where they came from. But anyway, would she have enjoyed killing and eating them? Relished in it as she did? That's what you want to go with her loving to kill and eat regardless of species, threat, and moral qualms? That's going to be really really hard to keep her likable is all. It's not that you can't do it (see a variety of vampire stories and such) but the less and less human you make her you give us less and less to connect to. Also bringing up not always chaotic evil when you have a character engaging in grizzly torture, consumption, and happy in doing so isn't exactly a grand example of non-chaotic evil. It's definitely not neutral evil.

[Consider how Alexia's brood were turned against their will, brainwashed, and then sent as cannon fodder against Ranma when they were practically newborns.
[See the raw fear Cecilia had when Ranma and JTF2 burst into her house.

And what option does Ranma have to save them with what she knew then at her power level then? Pretty much zero. As far as she knows, and as far as I'm aware, if the children were turned and brainwashed pretty much completely getting back the old personality without massive changes even when you know who you're dealing with is pretty much impossible. So what choice did she really have? What choice did she have with the punks in the alleyway though? Many. This is one of the first times I can really point to and go look she chose the bloodiest, most violent, and least human decision out of pretty much any she could possibly make.

[But I think Nadrek's point was that Ranma has been traveling down this dark path for a long while.

[And if it takes a few human rapists to crystallize it, then I'm okay with that.

True but you just seem to really still not get how this is a problem to swallow with her previous ethics. Yes, as I said before previous times can see her killing and eating them. They threatened her. Torturing, glorying in their pain and deaths even with the amount you lightened that a bit, is still just so not who she ever seemed to be. Getting darker to accept death and murder and when necessary sparingly torture to gain information yes, but where did this giddy sense of glee at pain and suffering and ripping someone apart while still alive come from? There were hints that she could do that before but she seemed to willfully disregard that action. As Lawra mentioned she seems really quite close to where Alexia was on the scale of not caring about others (if you don't add in her family and lack of interest in mind control to that consideration), where does that stop? It just gives me pause because it really doesn't seem like it was developed. I re-read the whole story to date a few weeks ago and still just can't see how she comes to this. Let me ask you this say these folks weren't just rapists and they were instead hired mercenaries would she have so gleefully tortured them to death? Even if she respected them? I just don't see where the gleeful part comes in. The torture and deaths yes, pausingly, but the glee? No.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Drawde » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:17 pm

I wonder if that could have been the effect of whatever poison Murdok added to their drinks? Remember the part of the scene where Murdock rubbed the tops of the drinks he was bringing them before going to meet them? The only reason I can think of for that was to add something to them, either to effect the men or to effect Ranma.

Or it could have been the first part of some binary poison. So many possibilities.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Sunshine Temple » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:17 pm

Drawde wrote:I wonder if that could have been the effect of whatever poison Murdok added to their drinks? Remember the part of the scene where Murdock rubbed the tops of the drinks he was bringing them before going to meet them? The only reason I can think of for that was to add something to them, either to effect the men or to effect Ranma.

Or it could have been the first part of some binary poison. So many possibilities.


I'll just say that Murdock didn't need to do anything to effect those men. They were more than willing. So by elimination you can guess who Murdock intended. What exact effect he wanted. Well...
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Ellen Kuhfeld » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:51 pm

I'm not going to dispute an author's decisions. But if Ranma goes down that road, I'll make the reader's decision to quit reading.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Sunshine Temple » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:17 pm

Ellen Kuhfeld wrote:I'm not going to dispute an author's decisions. But if Ranma goes down that road, I'll make the reader's decision to quit reading.


Which road? Because if you're still reading it up until the present (Interlude 3) there should not be much to worry about. Frice's lengthy concerns not withstanding that is about a high water mark. That you have concerns about the brink she's on is good.

And again I hold the more Nadrek view that what Interlude 3 had was not a giant shift in Ranma's style.

Also on that, Frice you've already articulated your case. I agreed to a point and did make some changes to the tone of that scene and Ranma's actions.

You're free to make the argument again but you've really started to reach diminishing returns on it. I mean, jumping into Nadrek's retrospective thoughts to rehash the issue months later? That doesn't exactly entice me to give your argument yet another go.

Just a heads up.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Nadrek » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:42 pm

[That said, one of the active units does not have superhuman strength. If anything that unit's member(s) has slightly below average human strength (though human strength varies such that that's a bit mooted).
[That's the Second I believe.
[The other active unit (4th I think) has somewhat higher strength (far higher stamina), so that group is more inclined to simply augment the existing WIC kit. Which is rather heavy, as the much maligned HOG is testament to.

/Interesting; one group of... magic users? Fey? Something weaker, anyway.
/And the 4th, then, could probably use some of the Fifth's weapons, though perhaps more in a heavy weapons role rather than the 5th's primary weapons role.


Similarly, Blacksky visited her granddaughter of 10 years, Yohko, and encouraged her to visit Ranma, who is in much need of a discussion with a more experienced succubus, especially as she is the eldest and the cornerstone of her brood.
[Indeed.
[That's also a good way to obliquely bring BlackSky and her plans back into the picture.
[Also that BlackSky can write to Ranma about Yohko's visit, and that Yohko and her spawn are registered with WIC will prevent unpleasantness at a first meeting.
/IDPS - Neither snow nor rain nor fires of hell nor dread of Cthulu stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds. (Inter-dimensional Postal Service)
[Recall that the last cousin Ranma met was Alexia.
/And the most recent non-brood succubus she met was Cynthia.
[We'll be seeing more of Yohko and her daughters.
/Good! They need some upgunning... at MSRP. They'll learn to handload if they want to save a few yen.


[The Interlude has shown that Ranma is also getting more into another type of succubus hunting.
/I actually find his 'date' with a male human more disturbing; I'd be more comfortable if he had another date with a female human.

As always, I'm looking forward to Ranma teleporting... perhaps to the Moon to scavenge before the Main Senshi or the Dark Senshi can manage more.
[The moon is quite a bit of distance.
/True; but one can hope! We never did cover if succubus teleportation was distance or time limited... or if Senshi teleportation was distance or time limited. If they're different... well, that's quite interesting.

Is it time for Eve and her original daughters to get their Senshi transformations and attacks, as well, catching up with Ranma's daughters?
[It's nearing there. I have Morgan's abilities lined up.
[Still thinking on Eve and Morrison's and Sophie's (but she's younger).
/I'd also note you appear to have quit using the "Pattern X Class Y" system entirely; Y has completely dropped off.

As a question, what _are_ Company policies on leave, time off, relaxation, psychological care, and so on and so forth? While the Company may have little experience with brand new succubus brood mothers on combat duty, they do have extensive experience with teenagers who have suddenly become killers and undergoing other assorted stresses; Kasumi, for example.
[Yes the Company does have a system in place.
[I've been remiss in not showing more (or much of any) of it.
/Hopefully we'll see a more... professional... approach to the psychological problems a teenage transnatural, transspecies, transsexual mother who went from a life of solitary training to a life of military combat might have; though I can see the Company having a hard time finding the right specialist.

[I went with queen partially for the sovereign and conquering nature.
[as a brood queen does control a group of subbroods and is basically a chieftain of a tribe that has carved out a territory.
[I also picked it over matriarch because queen is a shorter word as a pure stylistic choice
/Unless Ranma gets some land gifted from a grateful government for an embassy, I don't see Ranma as ending up as much of a ruler or conquerer... except, perhaps, of the Moon; let the Main or Dark Senshi do the initial cleanup, then simply move in and take over.

I also ask - the first DarkStar was a Prince of earth; was that Prince also a Mage... and if so, is Ranma remembering magic beyond using someone else's pre-prepared spells, in addition to succubus powers?
[Not much of a Mage no.
[Though succubae can learn and expand their magical powers.
/Point; what did Ranma learn from Mercury's little contingency "freeze everyone in the bar solid if bad things happen to me" spell? We're seeing many more Darkstar Bursts with finer control; but that's still merely pulling the trigger on someone else's spell.

If a succubus can summon and unsummon weapons, electronics, and armor, can't they have multiple sets in case of damage? Further, they can, as Nodoka mentioned, change the protection/danage vs. weight balance very quickly and repeatedly. For a non-flying succubus, even a smaller armored vehicle weapon like an M242 25mm Bushmaster would be practical (perhaps on a bipod, perhaps hand-held; 120ish kg isn't _that_ much more than their current equipment sets must weigh). A Russian 2A42 30mm cannon is also around 120ish kg, and the 2A72 (fixed fire rate, not selectable, and less moving parts) is only 90ish kg. Any of these would be very much in the line of treating the combat cyborgs like a vehicle (or punching through Minako-armor), not a person, and all of them support dual feed for two different ammunition types (a "normal" HEI or armor piercing, and an anti-NH, for example).
[This goes to the question of just how much can put in "storage".
[Both in terms of mass and volume. Also how much would mass be reduced while in storage?
/Precisely; what are the physics, including air resistance changes?

[I'm not sure they have the strength and endurance to go quite to that size in heavy weapons.
[The limit there is probably handiness of weapon and endurance of the succubus and not as much raw strength.
[That said Morgan's gun is an anti-material rifle and Morrison did use a man-portable version of an M2.
[Such a 30mm weapon could be the succubus equivalent of a crew-served. Where you have two that carry the weapon, support mount, and ammunition.
/I was figuring a 2A72 on a bipod, perhaps either the 2A42 or M242 on a tripod. Note that Oerlikon was working on an APDS variant of this; per http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/corrections.html
"More information has emerged about APDS ammunition for the Russian 30x165 cartridge used in the 2A42 and 2A72. The first generation was known as "Trezubka"; the entire projectile (including sabot) weighed 390g and was fired at 870 m/s to achieve a penetration of 25mm/1000m/60 degrees, the latest is known as "Kerner", with figures of 304g at 1,120 m/s and 25mm/1,500m/60 degrees."
Wholly authoritative information is available at http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Ammunition-Handbook/30-x-165-ammunition-for-2A42-2A38-and-2A72-cannon-Russian-Federation.html

[For adaptive armor, do plan to have some adaptive coloration aspects and some adaptive thickness/weight.
[However the latter is rather complicated. And would be more energy intensive in how many simultaneous bits of armor could one succubus hold.
/If you can, skip the adaptive thickness/weight; just use layers and/or complete replacements. When one set is damaged, swap it out for a new set; hopefully that's simpler, and the advantage of basic armor is it can be mass produced. Alternately, succubae coming in on the ground can start with a slab of armor from an APC or tank as a shield - pick a melee style from the past and use it, perhaps Roman; they can simply drop or throw it if it's too damaged, too heavy, or too unwieldy for the situation.

And I'll hold out hope that the combat cyborgs can be turned into Ranma's daughters or granddaughters; her brood needs some trained professionals, as well.
[Heh, cybernetic components versus the succubae's healing abilities would lead to some complications.
/What are complications but interesting plot developments? And the cybernetic are fully compatible with at least one form of magic.

[Great thoughts
/Thank you; sorry I'm late.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Sunshine Temple » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:53 am

>>[That said, one of the active units does not have superhuman strength. If anything that unit's member(s) has slightly below average human strength (though human strength varies such that that's a bit mooted).
>>[That's the Second I believe.
>>[The other active unit (4th I think) has somewhat higher strength (far higher stamina), so that group is more inclined to simply augment the existing WIC kit. Which is rather heavy, as the much maligned HOG is testament to.

/Interesting; one group of... magic users? Fey? Something weaker, anyway.
[It's more a utility magic. They have a much higher survivability to damage and ability to return information than humans.
[But they don't have an enhanced physicality.


/And the 4th, then, could probably use some of the Fifth's weapons, though perhaps more in a heavy weapons role rather than the 5th's primary weapons role.
[True, at the very least the 5th's weapons are handier.

[I should say that WIC has a few "contractor" groups like Yohko who are not as permanent (or large) as the NH Task Forces.

[Though Yohko may be reluctant to take that much equipment as she would then be dependent on WIC's supply chain.

Similarly, Blacksky visited her granddaughter of 10 years, Yohko, and encouraged her to visit Ranma, who is in much need of a discussion with a more experienced succubus, especially as she is the eldest and the cornerstone of her brood.
>>[Indeed.
>>[That's also a good way to obliquely bring BlackSky and her plans back into the picture.
>>[Also that BlackSky can write to Ranma about Yohko's visit, and that Yohko and her spawn are registered with WIC will prevent unpleasantness at a first meeting.
/IDPS - Neither snow nor rain nor fires of hell nor dread of Cthulu stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds. (Inter-dimensional Postal Service)

[Hehe. It's probably a bit more mundane than that.
[Someone from Alexia's court would teleport over and drop the letter in the mail. Or give it to aWIC facility (though that has verification issues too)

>>[Recall that the last cousin Ranma met was Alexia.
/And the most recent non-brood succubus she met was Cynthia.

[Do you mean Cecilia? Who's also of the Alexia line.
[I suppose a problem with Yohko is that while she offers a different perspective, she's still of BlackSky's lineage.

[I should probably include some succubae from the other Houses.

>>[We'll be seeing more of Yohko and her daughters.
/Good! They need some upgunning... at MSRP. They'll learn to handload if they want to save a few yen.

[Heh, reminds me that Ranma hasn't learned how to budget training expenditures or equipment. Ammunition alone is hugely expensive for her girls, not counting the rest of their kit.
[Then again, Ranma's fallen to a military lifestyle where the "big grey-machine" pays for everything, in exchange for telling her where to go.

[I can contrast the differences with how Yohko operates. With the latter being more of an independent contractor versus someone that is integrated into WIC's command structure.


>>[The Interlude has shown that Ranma is also getting more into another type of succubus hunting.
/I actually find his 'date' with a male human more disturbing; I'd be more comfortable if he had another date with a female human.

[Yes, sexuality and gender are viable issues for Ranma.
[Especially as she's now part of a single gendered species.
[We've seen the issues that come with getting close to a female human.

[And as a succubus Ranma would be physically attracted to both genders of humanity.
[But that physical attraction is linked into the feeding and turning aspects.

[It's a different with succubae (not that she can't feed or turn them)
[But as shown with the Yohko thing Ranma is related to every single succubus she's met.

As always, I'm looking forward to Ranma teleporting... perhaps to the Moon to scavenge before the Main Senshi or the Dark Senshi can manage more.
>>[The moon is quite a bit of distance.
/True; but one can hope! We never did cover if succubus teleportation was distance or time limited... or if Senshi teleportation was distance or time limited. If they're different... well, that's quite interesting.

[There's a difference if only by the mechanics.
[As for cooldown it would probably be quite unusual for a succubus to be able to do Nightcrawler style (IE no delay between teleports) teleport spam.

[Though if there's still a few minutes to a couple hours that has a very, very useful tactical advantage. Though would need to coordinate with local jammer use.
[BlackSky shows that succubae can do inter-dimensional teleportation.


Is it time for Eve and her original daughters to get their Senshi transformations and attacks, as well, catching up with Ranma's daughters?
>>[It's nearing there. I have Morgan's abilities lined up.
>>[Still thinking on Eve and Morrison's and Sophie's (but she's younger).
/I'd also note you appear to have quit using the "Pattern X Class Y" system entirely; Y has completely dropped off.

[I'll occasionally use the Class Y.
[That is a bit of a mistake as it was too hard to scale things.
[Especially as characters grew more powerful. I even had that mentioned from the start.

[That said, it's also fallen off because against the Numbers the Pattern and Class values aren't quite as useful.

[With other enemies the pattern and even class identification will become more useful.

As a question, what _are_ Company policies on leave, time off, relaxation, psychological care, and so on and so forth? While the Company may have little experience with brand new succubus brood mothers on combat duty, they do have extensive experience with teenagers who have suddenly become killers and undergoing other assorted stresses; Kasumi, for example.
>>[Yes the Company does have a system in place.
>>[I've been remiss in not showing more (or much of any) of it.
/Hopefully we'll see a more... professional... approach to the psychological problems a teenage transnatural, transspecies, transsexual mother who went from a life of solitary training to a life of military combat might have; though I can see the Company having a hard time finding the right specialist.

[WIC has the advantage of being a large organization, but they'd need a specialist with the right knowledge and the correct security clearance.
[Naturally such people would be privy to a boatload of personal information, information that is highly secure.

[On the upside, if the WIC brass think Ranma (and the others) could benefit from counseling there's enough trust that they (especially Jacob) can make the case.

[Kasumi herself has had quite a bit of work in that area and can talk with Ranma about it.

[A big problem is that WIC takes a "squeaky wheel" approach with this. They knew Kasumi was an issue from recruitment and took measures.
[With Ranma they had to build up trust first and Ranma's been such a success...

[Though a major point of Interlude 3 was that even Ranma has her emotional and psychological limits.


>>[I went with queen partially for the sovereign and conquering nature.
>>[as a brood queen does control a group of subbroods and is basically a chieftain of a tribe that has carved out a territory.
>>[I also picked it over matriarch because queen is a shorter word as a pure stylistic choice
/Unless Ranma gets some land gifted from a grateful government for an embassy, I don't see Ranma as ending up as much of a ruler or conquerer... except, perhaps, of the Moon; let the Main or Dark Senshi do the initial cleanup, then simply move in and take over.

[She'll get the former actually which gives some de-jure land.
[In the defacto sense she has claimed much of Toronto.
[Yohko will find that when she visits. How strong Ranma's presence is in the city "marking" much of the territory.

I also ask - the first DarkStar was a Prince of earth; was that Prince also a Mage... and if so, is Ranma remembering magic beyond using someone else's pre-prepared spells, in addition to succubus powers?
>>[Not much of a Mage no.
>>[Though succubae can learn and expand their magical powers.
/Point; what did Ranma learn from Mercury's little contingency "freeze everyone in the bar solid if bad things happen to me" spell? We're seeing many more Darkstar Bursts with finer control; but that's still merely pulling the trigger on someone else's spell.

[Ranma hasn't been doing much if any new magical learning.
[She has limited time.
[She has been refining the use of her DSB's to use them in more of an intelligence/recon role but she's not doing as much new study.

[That will be changing as she works with Usagi and refines her abilities however.
[So there's some new casting coming from there.

If a succubus can summon and unsummon weapons, electronics, and armor, can't they have multiple sets in case of damage? Further, they can, as Nodoka mentioned, change the protection/danage vs. weight balance very quickly and repeatedly. For a non-flying succubus, even a smaller armored vehicle weapon like an M242 25mm Bushmaster would be practical (perhaps on a bipod, perhaps hand-held; 120ish kg isn't _that_ much more than their current equipment sets must weigh). A Russian 2A42 30mm cannon is also around 120ish kg, and the 2A72 (fixed fire rate, not selectable, and less moving parts) is only 90ish kg. Any of these would be very much in the line of treating the combat cyborgs like a vehicle (or punching through Minako-armor), not a person, and all of them support dual feed for two different ammunition types (a "normal" HEI or armor piercing, and an anti-NH, for example).
>>[This goes to the question of just how much can put in "storage".
>>[Both in terms of mass and volume. Also how much would mass be reduced while in storage?
/Precisely; what are the physics, including air resistance changes?

[That is something I should run some hard numbers for

>>[I'm not sure they have the strength and endurance to go quite to that size in heavy weapons.
>>[The limit there is probably handiness of weapon and endurance of the succubus and not as much raw strength.
>>[That said Morgan's gun is an anti-material rifle and Morrison did use a man-portable version of an M2.
>>[Such a 30mm weapon could be the succubus equivalent of a crew-served. Where you have two that carry the weapon, support mount, and ammunition.
/I was figuring a 2A72 on a bipod, perhaps either the 2A42 or M242 on a tripod. Note that Oerlikon was working on an APDS variant of this; per http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/corrections.html
"More information has emerged about APDS ammunition for the Russian 30x165 cartridge used in the 2A42 and 2A72. The first generation was known as "Trezubka"; the entire projectile (including sabot) weighed 390g and was fired at 870 m/s to achieve a penetration of 25mm/1000m/60 degrees, the latest is known as "Kerner", with figures of 304g at 1,120 m/s and 25mm/1,500m/60 degrees."
Wholly authoritative information is available at http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... ation.html


[might go with a M242. Though ammunition supply simplicity is less of an issue than for other forces.
[and more mobile is better for such forces.

[Though the Canadians have the M242 so WIC could pick one up surpluss from them

[Hmm will have to think about that.

[I would say any such system would about push the limit for a succubus team.
[With one carrying the gun and the other carrying the tripod and extra ammunition
[at least I don't think these need spare barrels so there's that.


>>[For adaptive armor, do plan to have some adaptive coloration aspects and some adaptive thickness/weight.
>>[However the latter is rather complicated. And would be more energy intensive in how many simultaneous bits of armor could one succubus hold.
/If you can, skip the adaptive thickness/weight; just use layers and/or complete replacements. When one set is damaged, swap it out for a new set; hopefully that's simpler, and the advantage of basic armor is it can be mass produced. Alternately, succubae coming in on the ground can start with a slab of armor from an APC or tank as a shield - pick a melee style from the past and use it, perhaps Roman; they can simply drop or throw it if it's too damaged, too heavy, or too unwieldy for the situation.

[Replace of armor does have a simplicity advantage.
[As we saw with Ranma, she got battered in a fight with Galina, and regenerated much of her body, but was stuck with her broken armor.

[Not sure how often they'd use such shields. Though since they're droppable may not be too bad to simply keep around.

And I'll hold out hope that the combat cyborgs can be turned into Ranma's daughters or granddaughters; her brood needs some trained professionals, as well.
>>[Heh, cybernetic components versus the succubae's healing abilities would lead to some complications.
/What are complications but interesting plot developments? And the cybernetic are fully compatible with at least one form of magic.

[Yes one form.
[Where succubus regeneration is rather aggressive.
[They have issues keeping piercings from healing if left open for practically any time.


>>[Great thoughts
/Thank you; sorry I'm late.

[No worries.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Nadrek » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:42 pm

[Though Yohko may be reluctant to take that much equipment as she would then be dependent on WIC's supply chain.

::Take 5 pistols, a few spare parts, the gunsmith kit, and 10,000 rounds of ammunition; heck, some of us have to order 1,000 round cases because local
::stores don't stock amounts, and the factory doesn't ship smaller amounts. While 10,000 rounds won't last long at a 500 round/day*succubus training
::regimen, if they merely use them in rare cases, it's not bad, and if they continue ordering more, if WIC cuts them off, they've got enough for quite awhile
::of low usage. Since Yohko hasn't used them before, her brood is highly unlikely to be as 'dependent' on them as Ranma's brood is in combat.

[I should probably include some succubae from the other Houses.
::We know of Blacksky's house and Vephar; others were supposed to be closer to Blacksky's practices than Vephar's. Beyond that, we know little other
::than that they're territorial and prefer the succubus home plane. A 'state visit' from a neighboring city queen/matriarch would be appropriate.


[Heh, reminds me that Ranma hasn't learned how to budget training expenditures or equipment. Ammunition alone is hugely expensive for her girls, not counting the rest of their kit.
[Then again, Ranma's fallen to a military lifestyle where the "big grey-machine" pays for everything, in exchange for telling her where to go.
::Yes, Ranma's been doing missions that WIC assigns without much thought, including the Pattern V's used as the Assembly trap.
::Ranma's getting paid, we don't know how much, but apparently expenses are being handled as a Company cost center.
::Setting up the 5th NH as a fully cost-accountable entity would be an eye opener... and give Ranma a better idea of what's required to go independent.
::Maybe Ranma needs to turn an accountant and a lawyer as well as combat experts.

[I can contrast the differences with how Yohko operates. With the latter being more of an independent contractor versus someone that is integrated into WIC's command structure.
::Chances are, she's a 'standard succubus/devil hunter' rather than a military contractor; very low expenses, perhaps some inherited money, and a house
::to live in. Perhaps one enemy at a time that she's hunting.
::Ranma has armor, weapons, rental of shooting ranges, ammunition up to and including 40mm grenades and semi-custom ammo (often WIC anti-NH
::specials), but not yet including anti-tank weapons like Javelins, TOW's, RPG-29's, etc, helicopter rental, APC rental, fuel consumption and maintenance
::costs, rental on a military bunker as an office, rental on an "armed" compound, surveillance and security teams for said compound. Multiple enemies, all
::capable of attacking in force as well as being attacked.

::Ranma, in short, operates on an entirely different scale and scope than Yohko does; a scale that generally only governments operate on.

[We've seen the issues that come with getting close to a female human.
::No difference with any human; they will, or will not, want to be converted.

[There's a difference if only by the mechanics.
[As for cooldown it would probably be quite unusual for a succubus to be able to do Nightcrawler style (IE no delay between teleports) teleport spam.
::Even at half a minute between teleports, it's a powerful tactical ability, particularly when combined with the long range capabilities of the Brood. That would get even worse with remote designated guided weapons; the shooter teleports in, waits the time, fires and teleports out, while a second designator takes over.

[Though if there's still a few minutes to a couple hours that has a very, very useful tactical advantage. Though would need to coordinate with local jammer use.
[BlackSky shows that succubae can do inter-dimensional teleportation.
::True, Ranma visiting home will be very interesting; in particular, how other succubus react to an Earth based paramilitary brood should be interesting.
::Given that the succubus species like their home plane because it protects them from predators, how they react to a brood that is a set of predators
::(foreign [combat] magic, foreign weapons, foreign military allies, and human style military training) should be... interesting. I can't imagine the other
::broods would be very happy about that - and they, too, are formed of loving, skilled armies.

[On the upside, if the WIC brass think Ranma (and the others) could benefit from counseling there's enough trust that they (especially Jacob) can make the case.
::Given Jacob asking "Are you able to do that" repeatedly, I'd think he thinks Ranma could benefit from counseling.

[Kasumi herself has had quite a bit of work in that area and can talk with Ranma about it.
::Good.

[Though a major point of Interlude 3 was that even Ranma has her emotional and psychological limits.
::And now Ranma, on retrospect, should realize that.

>>[I went with queen partially for the sovereign and conquering nature.
>>[as a brood queen does control a group of subbroods and is basically a chieftain of a tribe that has carved out a territory.
>>[I also picked it over matriarch because queen is a shorter word as a pure stylistic choice
/Unless Ranma gets some land gifted from a grateful government for an embassy, I don't see Ranma as ending up as much of a ruler or conquerer... except, perhaps, of the Moon; let the Main or Dark Senshi do the initial cleanup, then simply move in and take over.

[She'll get the former actually which gives some de-jure land.
[In the defacto sense she has claimed much of Toronto.
[Yohko will find that when she visits. How strong Ranma's presence is in the city "marking" much of the territory.
::For the de jure land, with or without diplomatic immunity, and at what level?
::De facto, she has no land; she has, effectively, an easement on Succubus activity in Toronto; presumably there are other NH's with territorial natures that are already set up in the area for their own species... and the Canadian government asserts the final ownership.

/Precisely; what are the physics, including air resistance changes?

[That is something I should run some hard numbers for
::Wise; certainly weight deployed and weight/volume 'retracted' is critical, as well as lift and run capacity.

[might go with a M242. Though ammunition supply simplicity is less of an issue than for other forces.
[and more mobile is better for such forces.
::Being able to get Russian weapons and ammo would impress the Numbers more, and the bigger HEI charges and volume for 'special' payloads would
::probably be more useful.

[Though the Canadians have the M242 so WIC could pick one up surpluss from them
::True

[I would say any such system would about push the limit for a succubus team.
[With one carrying the gun and the other carrying the tripod and extra ammunition
[at least I don't think these need spare barrels so there's that.
::Agreed; it's a heavy weapons system. Note the tripods are very slow to re-aim; a bipod is much handier.

[Not sure how often they'd use such shields. Though since they're droppable may not be too bad to simply keep around.
::Exit APC, grab shield, proceed; drop as soon as you don't need it, keep it if you do. Even if they provide a little additional cover for a short time, that's
::fine - drop down, slope it over you, and the gutter's a lot better.

[Yes one form.
[Where succubus regeneration is rather aggressive.
[They have issues keeping piercings from healing if left open for practically any time.
::And the implants don't need to come out; replace the nuke generator with the magic->electricity, and a lot less is required.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Sunshine Temple » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:20 pm

>>[Though Yohko may be reluctant to take that much equipment as she would then be dependent on WIC's supply chain.

::Take 5 pistols, a few spare parts, the gunsmith kit, and 10,000 rounds of ammunition; heck, some of us have to order 1,000 round cases because local
::stores don't stock amounts, and the factory doesn't ship smaller amounts. While 10,000 rounds won't last long at a 500 round/day*succubus training
::regimen, if they merely use them in rare cases, it's not bad, and if they continue ordering more, if WIC cuts them off, they've got enough for quite awhile
::of low usage. Since Yohko hasn't used them before, her brood is highly unlikely to be as 'dependent' on them as Ranma's brood is in combat.

[That is true. Though that also shows what is entailed to merely keep up with just sidearms.


>>[I should probably include some succubae from the other Houses.
::We know of Blacksky's house and Vephar; others were supposed to be closer to Blacksky's practices than Vephar's. Beyond that, we know little other
::than that they're territorial and prefer the succubus home plane. A 'state visit' from a neighboring city queen/matriarch would be appropriate.

[Can have that as part of a follow up with Yohko's visit
[That does fit with BlackSky's desire to built up DarkStar as a political and military power.

>>[Heh, reminds me that Ranma hasn't learned how to budget training expenditures or equipment. Ammunition alone is hugely expensive for her girls, not counting the rest of their kit.
>>[Then again, Ranma's fallen to a military lifestyle where the "big grey-machine" pays for everything, in exchange for telling her where to go.
::Yes, Ranma's been doing missions that WIC assigns without much thought, including the Pattern V's used as the Assembly trap.
::Ranma's getting paid, we don't know how much, but apparently expenses are being handled as a Company cost center.
::Setting up the 5th NH as a fully cost-accountable entity would be an eye opener... and give Ranma a better idea of what's required to go independent.
::Maybe Ranma needs to turn an accountant and a lawyer as well as combat experts.

[Heh. WIC does have legal and accounting teams (as does any military outfit)
[Though that's also giving her more and more on her plate.
[But this is work that she would find value in, and want to learn more about.

>>[I can contrast the differences with how Yohko operates. With the latter being more of an independent contractor versus someone that is integrated into WIC's command structure.
::Chances are, she's a 'standard succubus/devil hunter' rather than a military contractor; very low expenses, perhaps some inherited money, and a house
::to live in. Perhaps one enemy at a time that she's hunting.

[Yes more of the "bounty hunter"/"assassin" model.

::Ranma has armor, weapons, rental of shooting ranges, ammunition up to and including 40mm grenades and semi-custom ammo (often WIC anti-NH
::specials), but not yet including anti-tank weapons like Javelins, TOW's, RPG-29's, etc, helicopter rental, APC rental, fuel consumption and maintenance
::costs, rental on a military bunker as an office, rental on an "armed" compound, surveillance and security teams for said compound. Multiple enemies, all
::capable of attacking in force as well as being attacked.

::Ranma, in short, operates on an entirely different scale and scope than Yohko does; a scale that generally only governments operate on.

[Correct. Ranma's basically a mid-level officer in a special forces organization.


>>[We've seen the issues that come with getting close to a female human.
::No difference with any human; they will, or will not, want to be converted.

[Ah, true.

>>[There's a difference if only by the mechanics.
>>[As for cooldown it would probably be quite unusual for a succubus to be able to do Nightcrawler style (IE no delay between teleports) teleport spam.
::Even at half a minute between teleports, it's a powerful tactical ability, particularly when combined with the long range capabilities of the Brood. That would get even worse with remote designated guided weapons; the shooter teleports in, waits the time, fires and teleports out, while a second designator takes over.

[I was thinking longer on the order of 5-10 minutes for cooldown.
[still for someone like Morgan and a spotter (for example) that would be extremely useful.

>>[Though if there's still a few minutes to a couple hours that has a very, very useful tactical advantage. Though would need to coordinate with local jammer use.
>>[BlackSky shows that succubae can do inter-dimensional teleportation.
::True, Ranma visiting home will be very interesting; in particular, how other succubus react to an Earth based paramilitary brood should be interesting.
::Given that the succubus species like their home plane because it protects them from predators, how they react to a brood that is a set of predators
::(foreign >>[combat] magic, foreign weapons, foreign military allies, and human style military training) should be... interesting. I can't imagine the other
::broods would be very happy about that - and they, too, are formed of loving, skilled armies.

[It depends on who they meet.
[One thing BlackSky did with her conquests was take technologies, magics and tactics from those she turned to her side.

[So I can see BlackSky wanting to gain more from her granddaughter
[Not just getting equipment and weapons but on building industrial capability.

[I do have stuff with that planned.

>>[On the upside, if the WIC brass think Ranma (and the others) could benefit from counseling there's enough trust that they (especially Jacob) can make the case.
::Given Jacob asking "Are you able to do that" repeatedly, I'd think he thinks Ranma could benefit from counseling.

[That makes quite a lot of sense. Jacob did a hitch as a Company recruiter and trainer.
[So he does know about spotting such problems and how to remedy them

>>[Kasumi herself has had quite a bit of work in that area and can talk with Ranma about it.
::Good.

>>[Though a major point of Interlude 3 was that even Ranma has her emotional and psychological limits.
::And now Ranma, on retrospect, should realize that.

[One thing for Ranma was that it took her a while to find her limits.



>>[She'll get the former actually which gives some de-jure land.
>>[In the defacto sense she has claimed much of Toronto.
>>[Yohko will find that when she visits. How strong Ranma's presence is in the city "marking" much of the territory.
::For the de jure land, with or without diplomatic immunity, and at what level?

[That's a tricky question.
[Given how much of what is done is classified as black.
[Diplomatic relations are a bit more difficult when one party cannot publically acknowledge the very existence of the other.
[That's also part of the legal immunity too.

[Ranma's citizenship is a thorny issue as well.

::De facto, she has no land; she has, effectively, an easement on Succubus activity in Toronto; presumably there are other NH's with territorial natures that are already set up in the area for their own species... and the Canadian government asserts the final ownership.

[Though they can sense Ranma's power in the area.
[And there is that much of the area is under her "protection"


>>[That is something I should run some hard numbers for
::Wise; certainly weight deployed and weight/volume 'retracted' is critical, as well as lift and run capacity.

[At the very least can come up with some ratios to body mass to pencil in some limits.

>>[might go with a M242. Though ammunition supply simplicity is less of an issue than for other forces.
>>[and more mobile is better for such forces.
::Being able to get Russian weapons and ammo would impress the Numbers more, and the bigger HEI charges and volume for 'special' payloads would
::probably be more useful.

[True. Hmmm more to think about.

>>[Though the Canadians have the M242 so WIC could pick one up surpluss from them
::True

>>[I would say any such system would about push the limit for a succubus team.
>>[With one carrying the gun and the other carrying the tripod and extra ammunition
>>[at least I don't think these need spare barrels so there's that.
::Agreed; it's a heavy weapons system. Note the tripods are very slow to re-aim; a bipod is much handier.

[Yes, stability and weight support versus time and handiness
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Nadrek » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:49 pm

>>[I should probably include some succubae from the other Houses.
::We know of Blacksky's house and Vephar; others were supposed to be closer to Blacksky's practices than Vephar's. Beyond that, we know little other
::than that they're territorial and prefer the succubus home plane. A 'state visit' from a neighboring city queen/matriarch would be appropriate.

[Can have that as part of a follow up with Yohko's visit
[That does fit with BlackSky's desire to built up DarkStar as a political and military power.

}}If BlackSky is doing that, then perhaps Ranma is BlackSky's Earth plenipotentary; any other Houses wanting to discuss Succubus activity
}}on Earth with BlackSky's brood have to go through Ranma.

[Heh. WIC does have legal and accounting teams (as does any military outfit)
[Though that's also giving her more and more on her plate.
[But this is work that she would find value in, and want to learn more about.

}}And it's high time she started delegating within her brood; her children are capable of more than pure combat. I can actually see Nariko as a good choice here, in a supportive task.

>>[There's a difference if only by the mechanics.
>>[As for cooldown it would probably be quite unusual for a succubus to be able to do Nightcrawler style (IE no delay between teleports) teleport spam.
::Even at half a minute between teleports, it's a powerful tactical ability, particularly when combined with the long range capabilities of the Brood. That would get even worse with remote designated guided weapons; the shooter teleports in, waits the time, fires and teleports out, while a second designator takes over.

[I was thinking longer on the order of 5-10 minutes for cooldown.
[still for someone like Morgan and a spotter (for example) that would be extremely useful.

}}For the succubus teleport, or the Sailor teleport? The Brood Senshi have access to both, and given the Pattern differences, I doubt they share a cooldown period. Further, _why_ is each cooldown period there, and what side effects does it have? Lower capability, lower energy output, less stored power, or is teleport energy somehow not easily convertible to other magical energy (per the Interdim signatures being distinct from Pattern signatures)?


[It depends on who they meet.
[One thing BlackSky did with her conquests was take technologies, magics and tactics from those she turned to her side.
[So I can see BlackSky wanting to gain more from her granddaughter
[Not just getting equipment and weapons but on building industrial capability.

}}Now _that_ is a truly interesting idea; Ranma overseeing the selling of old roman artifacts to buy CNC machine tools, and sending foreign succubae to university to major in engineering.

>>[She'll get the former actually which gives some de-jure land.
>>[In the defacto sense she has claimed much of Toronto.
>>[Yohko will find that when she visits. How strong Ranma's presence is in the city "marking" much of the territory.
::For the de jure land, with or without diplomatic immunity, and at what level?

[That's a tricky question.
[Given how much of what is done is classified as black.
[Diplomatic relations are a bit more difficult when one party cannot publically acknowledge the very existence of the other.
[That's also part of the legal immunity too.
}}Basically; what can Ranma do on Ranma's land before the Canadian government intervenes?

[Ranma's citizenship is a thorny issue as well.
}}I would say that no traditional ruling 'queen' should hold citizenship in a country other than her own. Hence my bringing up Matriarch as well.
}}Ranma's clearly not Canadian; what does Ranma's 'true' passport say... or does Ranma have one at this point?

::De facto, she has no land; she has, effectively, an easement on Succubus activity in Toronto; presumably there are other NH's with territorial natures that are already set up in the area for their own species... and the Canadian government asserts the final ownership.

[Though they can sense Ranma's power in the area.
[And there is that much of the area is under her "protection"

}}Really? I've never seen anything about that, nor have I seen hints of other powerful NH interests in Canada seeking Ranma's approval or opinion out.
}}We've been purely WIC based; nothing really regarding Ranma at all.

>>[I would say any such system would about push the limit for a succubus team.
>>[With one carrying the gun and the other carrying the tripod and extra ammunition
>>[at least I don't think these need spare barrels so there's that.
::Agreed; it's a heavy weapons system. Note the tripods are very slow to re-aim; a bipod is much handier.

[Yes, stability and weight support versus time and handiness

}}This is getting very far out of Nodoka's and even WIC's current realm; bring them both in for competitive evaluation. The real question: on WIC's dime, or is this the first thing on Ranma's accounting dime (for which Ranma should clearly soak Setsuna)?

Pull in both a BTR-90 and a wheeled M242 carrier, dismount the weapons for the Brood, and evaluate the vehicles separately; without the big cannon, they're a lot less threatening to Canadian civilians, and they definitely have more armor than what WIC's been using to date.
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Re: The Return [R.5 SM]: Interlude 3 "Down Time"

Postby Sunshine Temple » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:28 pm

>>[Can have that as part of a follow up with Yohko's visit
>>[That does fit with BlackSky's desire to built up DarkStar as a political and military power.

}}If BlackSky is doing that, then perhaps Ranma is BlackSky's Earth plenipotentary; any other Houses wanting to discuss Succubus activity
}}on Earth with BlackSky's brood have to go through Ranma.

[That seems likely.
[As Ranma is the closest relative to BlackSky active on Earth.
[And Ranma does have domain over the Earth via her Sailor Moon connections.

[Yohko for example is Ranma's first cousin thrice removed.

>>[Heh. WIC does have legal and accounting teams (as does any military outfit)
>>[Though that's also giving her more and more on her plate.
>>[But this is work that she would find value in, and want to learn more about.

}}And it's high time she started delegating within her brood; her children are capable of more than pure combat. I can actually see Nariko as a good choice here, in a supportive task.

[Which fits as Ranma has been having Nariko be her XO
[Also that's why Ranma has had them do more training with Eve's brood, Cecilia's brood, Usagi's Senshi, and JTF2.
[So she is having them expand their roles.



>>[I was thinking longer on the order of 5-10 minutes for cooldown.
>>[still for someone like Morgan and a spotter (for example) that would be extremely useful.

}}For the succubus teleport, or the Sailor teleport? The Brood Senshi have access to both, and given the Pattern differences, I doubt they share a cooldown period. Further, _why_ is each cooldown period there, and what side effects does it have? Lower capability, lower energy output, less stored power, or is teleport energy somehow not easily convertible to other magical energy (per the Interdim signatures being distinct from Pattern signatures)?

[If we go by Inner Style Sailor Teleport they'd need to be in a group.
[As for teleport limitations there's a few: available energy, amount of energy that the teleport "organ/engine" can take in a given time, and fatigue of the inter-dim structure itself.

[A major issue in the area is the weakening of dimensional barriers.
[To the extend that they made an offer to the Numbers to stop some of their technology.,


>>[It depends on who they meet.
>>[One thing BlackSky did with her conquests was take technologies, magics and tactics from those she turned to her side.
>>[So I can see BlackSky wanting to gain more from her granddaughter
>>[Not just getting equipment and weapons but on building industrial capability.

}}Now _that_ is a truly interesting idea; Ranma overseeing the selling of old roman artifacts to buy CNC machine tools, and sending foreign succubae to university to major in engineering.

[There's also the magical infrastructure and material that the homeplane has.
[But teleporting being what it is, there's less to be made in shipping bulk materials.

[and there's people from Earth going to universities in BlackSky's domain.

[I do have the home plane and specifically BlackSky's domain mapped out.
[So that's another avenue of the story world to explore.


::For the de jure land, with or without diplomatic immunity, and at what level?

>>[That's a tricky question.
>>[Given how much of what is done is classified as black.
>>[Diplomatic relations are a bit more difficult when one party cannot publically acknowledge the very existence of the other.
>>[That's also part of the legal immunity too.
}}Basically; what can Ranma do on Ranma's land before the Canadian government intervenes?

[That's touchy, given her relationship with WIC.
[And goes into what WIC is allowed to do on land they own.
[We've seen quite a bit of live-fire exercises

[Or even on land they don't own. But WIC is duly contracted by the Canadian government.

>>[Ranma's citizenship is a thorny issue as well.
}}I would say that no traditional ruling 'queen' should hold citizenship in a country other than her own. Hence my bringing up Matriarch as well.
}}Ranma's clearly not Canadian; what does Ranma's 'true' passport say... or does Ranma have one at this point?

[True... she doesn't really have one.
[She's got a few that have her aliases on them.

[Also that's using more of a human style of queen. Brood Queen would be a rough convention.

[In say BlackSky's domain a brood queen would have more direct sovereignty, being just under the empress. Though that's more of a local king/chief.

::De facto, she has no land; she has, effectively, an easement on Succubus activity in Toronto; presumably there are other NH's with territorial natures that are already set up in the area for their own species... and the Canadian government asserts the final ownership.

>>[Though they can sense Ranma's power in the area.
>>[And there is that much of the area is under her "protection"

}}Really? I've never seen anything about that, nor have I seen hints of other powerful NH interests in Canada seeking Ranma's approval or opinion out.
}}We've been purely WIC based; nothing really regarding Ranma at all.

[Dang.
[That must have been something that I haven't gotten to yet in the story.
[I was pretty sure I had Cecilia mention dealing with the oppressive feeling of DarkStar's presence. Nuts.

[Yohko would certainly feel it.



>>[Yes, stability and weight support versus time and handiness

}}This is getting very far out of Nodoka's and even WIC's current realm; bring them both in for competitive evaluation. The real question: on WIC's dime, or is this the first thing on Ranma's accounting dime (for which Ranma should clearly soak Setsuna)?

Pull in both a BTR-90 and a wheeled M242 carrier, dismount the weapons for the Brood, and evaluate the vehicles separately; without the big cannon, they're a lot less threatening to Canadian civilians, and they definitely have more armor than what WIC's been using to date.

[Could bring them in and work an eval.
[They've done that with other weapons systems.

[The Setsuna thing brings up a point (and a good way for Ranma to justify the expense)
[But Ranma has done some of the fiscal side.
[Since she was a part of negotiating team, that got the Usagi deal.

[Which does give a natural bridge to have Ranma take more of a role in running the 5th, and delegating.

[What also fits is the training and employment of Cecilia and her broodlings.

[Since there's plenty of work for the unit that's not front line duty.
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